FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-24-2010, 06:39 PM   #11
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Sumner View Post
Quote:
There are only a few evangelical scholars who think that Acts is a reliable source of information on Paul
This is an interesting claim. Would you happen to be able to discern any statistics to that effect?
I haven't done a detailed survey, but I can't think of any modern scholars who think that Acts is a reliable source of historical information on anything, outside of evangelicals like Ben Witherington.

Richard Pervo, a Christian but not an evangelical, has written several books detailing his reasons for rejecting the historicity of Acts (the latest being The Mystery of Acts (or via: amazon.co.uk).) Donald Akenson (or via: amazon.co.uk) accepts the Pauline epistles and rejects Acts because it is inconsistent with Paul's own words. Vernon K. Robbins treats Acts as a literary composition.

Do you have any examples to the contrary?
Toto is offline  
Old 12-24-2010, 07:07 PM   #12
avi
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Location: eastern North America
Posts: 1,468
Default F. F. Bruce

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Sumner View Post

This is an interesting claim. Would you happen to be able to discern any statistics to that effect?
I haven't done a detailed survey, but I can't think of any modern scholars who think that Acts is a reliable source of historical information on anything, outside of evangelicals like Ben Witherington.

Richard Pervo, a Christian but not an evangelical, has written several books detailing his reasons for rejecting the historicity of Acts (the latest being The Mystery of Acts (or via: amazon.co.uk).) Donald Akenson (or via: amazon.co.uk) accepts the Pauline epistles and rejects Acts because it is inconsistent with Paul's own words. Vernon K. Robbins treats Acts as a literary composition.

Do you have any examples to the contrary?
How about F. F. Bruce (or via: amazon.co.uk), The Acts of the Apostles: The Greek Text With Introduction and Commentary ?

avi
avi is offline  
Old 12-24-2010, 07:29 PM   #13
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

You prove my point.

Wikipedia says
Quote:
Frederick Fyvie Bruce (12 October 1910 – 11 September 1990) was a Biblical scholar, and one of the founders of the modern evangelical understanding of the Bible. His work New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? is considered a classic in the discipline of Christian apologetics.[citation needed]
Toto is offline  
Old 12-26-2010, 11:38 AM   #14
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posts: 2,612
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Sumner View Post

This is an interesting claim. Would you happen to be able to discern any statistics to that effect?
I haven't done a detailed survey, but I can't think of any modern scholars who think that Acts is a reliable source of historical information on anything, outside of evangelicals like Ben Witherington.

Richard Pervo, a Christian but not an evangelical, has written several books detailing his reasons for rejecting the historicity of Acts (the latest being The Mystery of Acts (or via: amazon.co.uk).) Donald Akenson (or via: amazon.co.uk) accepts the Pauline epistles and rejects Acts because it is inconsistent with Paul's own words. Vernon K. Robbins treats Acts as a literary composition.

Do you have any examples to the contrary?
Richard Fellows comes to mind. Mark Nanos likewise seems to incline to take at least some points of Acts quite seriously.

I'm not sure that the divide is quite as clean as you imply. Scholars would doubtlessly be more or less unanimous (excluding evangelicals) in rejecting Acts as an "historical" narrative, there nevertheless seems to be at least a sizable contingent of academics who think there is something worthwhile to be found in Acts as pertains to Paul and his mission.
Rick Sumner is offline  
Old 12-26-2010, 12:18 PM   #15
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: England
Posts: 5,629
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
You prove my point.

Wikipedia says
Quote:
Frederick Fyvie Bruce (12 October 1910 – 11 September 1990)
Wasn't F F Bruce a member of the Plymouth Brethren, a rather fundamentalist group?
Steven Carr is offline  
Old 12-26-2010, 12:21 PM   #16
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: England
Posts: 5,629
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Sumner View Post
Richard Fellows comes to mind. Mark Nanos likewise seems to incline to take at least some points of Acts quite seriously.

I'm not sure that the divide is quite as clean as you imply. Scholars would doubtlessly be more or less unanimous (excluding evangelicals) in rejecting Acts as an "historical" narrative, there nevertheless seems to be at least a sizable contingent of academics who think there is something worthwhile to be found in Acts as pertains to Paul and his mission.
Isn't that the bit of Acts where Jesus pretty much vanishes as an historical character from Paul's speeches and Jewish and Roman reaction to Christianity?
Steven Carr is offline  
Old 12-26-2010, 05:01 PM   #17
Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Sumner View Post

This is an interesting claim. Would you happen to be able to discern any statistics to that effect?
I haven't done a detailed survey, but I can't think of any modern scholars who think that Acts is a reliable source of historical information on anything, outside of evangelicals like Ben Witherington.

Richard Pervo, a Christian but not an evangelical, has written several books detailing his reasons for rejecting the historicity of Acts (the latest being The Mystery of Acts (or via: amazon.co.uk).) Donald Akenson (or via: amazon.co.uk) accepts the Pauline epistles and rejects Acts because it is inconsistent with Paul's own words. Vernon K. Robbins treats Acts as a literary composition.

Do you have any examples to the contrary?
But, how can Pervo reject Acts and accept "Paul" when the Pauline writings agree in many significant parts with Acts.

The author of Acts claimed and was also stated in the Pauline writings that:

1. "Paul" persecuted people who believed in Christ.

2. "Paul" was converted to the FAITH.

3. "Paul" was STONED and beaten and imprisoned.

4. "Paul" traveled ALL over the Roman Empire.

5. "Paul" traveled with Barnabas to Jerusalem.


Acts contains the supposed post-Ascension history of Saul/Paul and if Acts is rejected then the Pauline writings are internally UNCORROBORATED and further, not even the Church knew what "PAUL" wrote.

Acts and the Pauline writings are extremely historically problematic and should NOT be accepted without external corroborative sources but there are none.

It MUST be that if "PAUL" had a KNOWN credible history then there would have been NO need for Acts of the Apostles.
aa5874 is offline  
Old 12-26-2010, 05:35 PM   #18
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

The Marcionite rejection of Acts should be enough to raise suspicions about its authenticity. The fact that Irenaeus says that not only did the Marcionites reject the book itself but the claims (i.e. that there was an 'apostle Paul,' that the common apostle was named Saul) should force us to take a second look at claims of it being an authentic history.

A parallel is the Samaritan rejection of almost all books of the 'Old Testament' save only for the Pentateuch and parts of Joshua (and even then Joshua is of clearly subordinate authority). This must have been the original position of all Israelites given the fact that the proiphetic books were undoubtedly written after the Law was established (or at least were canonized subsequent to the Pentateuch).

The Marcionite NT was older and existed without Acts. Luke is claimed to be the original Marcionite gospel but how is this possible when the Marcionites rejected everything about Acts which was clearly written by the same author (or at least parts of Luke were written by the author of Acts)?
stephan huller is offline  
Old 12-26-2010, 06:26 PM   #19
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Sumner View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post

...
Do you have any examples to the contrary?
Richard Fellows comes to mind.
Fellows believes that Acts was written by Luke, a companion of Paul. This would make Acts historical, if it were true. But this is an assumption, not a conclusion, and not an assumption that anyone outside the church would make. Fellows seems to be an admirer of Bauckham. I would classify him as evangelical, or at least someone who starts with the presuppostion that Acts is a work of history.

Quote:
Mark Nanos likewise seems to incline to take at least some points of Acts quite seriously.
Reference?

Quote:
I'm not sure that the divide is quite as clean as you imply. Scholars would doubtlessly be more or less unanimous (excluding evangelicals) in rejecting Acts as an "historical" narrative, there nevertheless seems to be at least a sizable contingent of academics who think there is something worthwhile to be found in Acts as pertains to Paul and his mission.
Do you have an example?
Toto is offline  
Old 12-27-2010, 10:54 PM   #20
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 11,525
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
I don't think so. For what it's worth I think the apostle did meet Jesus and was especially close to him at his crucifixion otherwise his emphasis on being 'baptized into his death' makes no sense.
This seems pretty speculative. Is it possible? Sure...and it might even be fun to imagine that Paul was the soldier who pierced Jesus' side and that's why he had such a reputation for persecuting the church.

But is there really any good reason to presume any of this? I can't see why. Paul uses cross symbolism in a weird mystical way, and while maybe that symbolism is rooted in something he participated in, it need not be.

Quote:
O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly set forth crucified?

Jerome writes that “in certain manuscripts (in quibusdam codicibus)” of Origen’s writings he has the reading “who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth?” So another variant reads:

O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly set forth crucified?
....if Paul uses the crucifixion mystically, then thsi would be better understood as Paul admonishing them for rejecting his mysticism.
spamandham is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:00 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.