PapaverDeum

You refer to fragment P52 correct ? Did you also say that this is not on the net ? Think again...



(image is taken from http://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/greek/johnpap.html )

Joey, I find it more than a bit misleading that you don't mention that it is a fragment that contains about 20 words.

Why is it that you didn't mention that ? (someone else did)

Funkytrip

And we're still waiting for an answer on post 2.

You state "place X exists for real, and it is described in the Bible, therefore everything that happens in the Bible is true"

We state "place X exists for real and it is described in a book, therefore everything that happens in that book is true" (Spiderman, Moby Dick, Troy etc)

So the question was:
"If you read a book where characters walk around in Paris and visit the Louvre, do you believe these characters exist for real and everything they did really happened?"

If yes, why, if not, why not?

steve_bnk

On translation issues.

From my long ago Chinese, Chinese is highly contextual. Past, peesent, and future is often infered from context. Symbols can take on mulitple meanings depending on inflection which is not indicated in the original symbols.

The original Hebrew is similar and according to my Oxford commentary by the 1st cnetury BCE the Jews pretty much all spoke other than Hebrew as a first toungue and many did not speak Hebrew. By that time translating the oldest Hebrew texts may have been difficult even for the Jews.

aa5874

It has been accepted, possibly universally, that there are discrepanies with the letters that carry the name Paul.

There may have been at least seven different persons who used the name Paul.

The letters with the name Paul have been brought into question without doubt.

steve_bnk

I ran my post past Shheshbazzar:

Hello, and Shalom Steve,
I agree with the observations of your first paragraph, however on the second, as much as I would like to agree for friendliness, I must admit that I have strong reservations.

Perhaps I can explain it this way, for hundreds of years BCE, Jewish culture and religion had been assaulted by the inroads that Hellinism (Greek) and other foreign cultures had been making upon traditional Jewish life, these syncretistic influences were pervasive and were at work at all levels of society, beginning with adopted languages, and through these, influencing all religious and social views.

The Maccabeean 'Revolt' was primarily a 'Hebrew culture' social revolt, one that strongly resisted and opposed the Hellenism that was threatening to overwhelm, syncretise and destroy the traditional Hebrew language, distinctive religious views, and way of life.

The first thing recognised was that the usage of the 'Greek' language was the biggest threat to Israel in preserving their distinctive 'HEBREW' culture.
By those who accepted this view, the reaction was to deem the Greek language (and all Greek culture) as being 'profane' and 'unclean', thus it came to be said among these that "it is worse to learn to speak Greek, than to eat swine flesh"
Strong words in a society where the swine's flesh taboo was strictly observed.
As a result a faction of Judaism 'separated' itself from the mainstream and refused to have any further interaction with the 'Greek' language or with its 'culture', and returned adamantly to Hebrew, and Hebrew only, in their worship, daily life, and in their children's education.
Meanwhile, the majority of 'Jews' went ahead with becoming more and more influenced by Hellenism, and other foreign languages and influences.

If you have not, I highly recommend that you read, and think over the contents of the books of Maccabees I & II.

So to summarize, yes, the majority of Jews -had- pretty much 'lost touch' with the Hebrew language by the 1st century, but on the other hand, a minority had from the 4th century BCE, returned heart and soul to as an exclusive use of Hebrew as could possibly be accomplished, becoming a 'separate' "Hebrew" culture that existed within the larger framework of Judaism, one that was, and has -ever since- been continued as a zealously protected and defended element of the Jewish people.
The very visible "Orthodox Jew's" now comprise its most 'visible' and easily identifiable element, but even they have never been 'all', as there have always been minority 'subsets' and 'factions' -separate- even among these.......
(such as I am, with nothing at all visible, or remarkable externally, not in dress, nor in any peculiarity of conduct, but a 'hidden one' in plain sight,
a living 'Hebrew Gileadite warrior'- dwelling -'without the camp'-, always on guard, always requiring the 'Watchword' of every man, whereby I know friend from foe.)

........That is why the 'Hebrew' language is a living language yet today, and is the official language of modern Israel.

bacht

...after being dead for centuries. Jews around the world adopted local languages or hybrids like Yiddish. The re-introduction of conversational Hebrew was promoted by Zionist thinkers and became state policy after 1948.

[not sure how your post addresses aa5874's?]

lpetrich

But you had not been too busy to start this thread. Why might that be?

I can point you to oodles of creation stories, and I can also point you to what scientists have worked out as the closest approximation to the truth that we have.

How much detail do you want me to go into?

I'm not impressed enough by such arguments to want to become a deist. If you are interested in debating me on that, I'd be willing to take you up on it.

For starters, why aren't we living in a dwarf irregular galaxy so that we can have a clearer view of the Universe around us?

That pamphlet's main "argument" is Bible worship.

But why did you start this thread?