Freethought & Rationalism Archive

bacht · 02-24-2010, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Did Jesus oppose the Romans or not?

Why did the Romans crucify Jesus if Jesus failed on all counts of opposing the Romans?

Why did Jews reject Jesus , before Jesus died, when Jesus was allegedly doing Messiah-like things, such as opposing the Romans, which got him crucifed by the Romans?

What did Jesus do to make his followers think of him as the Messiah, apart from die?

The standard historicist line is that the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah because he was dead, which is like claiming Americans voted for Eisenhower rather than Stevenson, because Stevenson was dead.

But wasn't the common messianic expectation manifested more in people like the Zealots (refusing to pay Roman tax)? Josephus tells us that there were firebrands like the Egyptian who tried to rally the people into military resistance. John the Baptist appears as Elijah returned, whose resistance to Ahab led ultimately to the coup sanctioned by his successor Elishah.

Jesus seems to be portrayed in deliberate contrast to such conventional 'heros'. He tells Pilate "my kingdom is not of this world". How many Palestinian Jews wanted to hear a message like this?

Steven Carr · 02-24-2010, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

But wasn't the common messianic expectation manifested more in people like the Zealots (refusing to pay Roman tax)? Josephus tells us that there were firebrands like the Egyptian who tried to rally the people into military resistance. John the Baptist appears as Elijah returned, whose resistance to Ahab led ultimately to the coup sanctioned by his successor Elishah.

Jesus seems to be portrayed in deliberate contrast to such conventional 'heros'. He tells Pilate "my kingdom is not of this world". How many Palestinian Jews wanted to hear a message like this?

And how many governors would want to crucify a lunatic who said things like 'my kingdom is not of this world'?

Why would Paul say the crucifixion was the stumbling block when he knew that it had been the message of Jesus that Palestinian Jews did not want to hear?

angelo · 02-25-2010, 03:31 AM

Was he crucified? He couldn't have been if he never existed in the first place now could he?

Toto · 07-21-2010, 11:31 AM

update: more support for mythicism at A Fourth Quest for Jesus…So What, and How So?

Quote:

... Indeed, the very tools for determining historicity within the first three quests for Jesus have been forged on a Synoptic-favoring set of programs, often at John’s expense. ...

While standard criteria for determining historicity within Jesus research are still of use, they must be modified to include the Fourth Gospel as a potential resource for Jesus research instead of functioning as grids for excluding Johannine features from gospel analysis. This is especially the case if the Fourth Gospel reflects a self-standing Jesus tradition, though theologically engaged, and if the Johannine narrative was crafted as a complement and alternative to Mark.

The critieria do no work for him, so they must be altered to allow John's Jesus to be historical! Which is easy since those criteria are not used in other branches of scholarship.

maryhelena · 07-21-2010, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

update: more support for mythicism at A Fourth Quest for Jesus…So What, and How So?

Quote:

... Indeed, the very tools for determining historicity within the first three quests for Jesus have been forged on a Synoptic-favoring set of programs, often at John’s expense. ...

While standard criteria for determining historicity within Jesus research are still of use, they must be modified to include the Fourth Gospel as a potential resource for Jesus research instead of functioning as grids for excluding Johannine features from gospel analysis. This is especially the case if the Fourth Gospel reflects a self-standing Jesus tradition, though theologically engaged, and if the Johannine narrative was crafted as a complement and alternative to Mark.

The critieria do no work for him, so they must be altered to allow John's Jesus to be historical! Which is easy since those criteria are not used in other branches of scholarship.

Perhaps, if it's Johannine historicity that the project will be after - a history that runs right up to Bethsaida Julius - the end result could be rather different than what the project might be envisaging..

Quote:

In response to the question, “so what?” only time will tell. For now, however, a fourth quest for Jesus is underway, as making sense of Johannine historicity is every bit as needed as making sense of Johannine theology.

Re Bethsaida - the previous In My View essay on this site was one called:
The Mystery of Bethsaida - not much in it though - just the acknowledgement of a 'mystery'...

http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/myst357915.shtml

bacht · 07-21-2010, 12:24 PM

What about the Johanine epistles, are they still considered to have some relationship with the gospel? If so do they offer any clues about this 'community', like where or when they were active?

angelo · 07-22-2010, 01:57 AM

The gospel of John remains an enigma. Written around 90-110 CE according to most scholars, yet it contains snippets of truth not found in the synoptics. At one time everyone ignored this passage: " Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda, and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades."
John 5:2
Then between 1957-1962, a series of archeological investigations uncovered a pool in the very area described by John.

Steven Carr · 07-22-2010, 03:13 AM

Larry Hurtado has an excellent article on the Gospel according to 'John' at http://larryhurtado.files.wordpress....tion-paper.doc

Professor Hurtado writes 'The author’s reason for giving his account of the ministry of Jesus was entirely theological, not to serve some academic modern interest in historical exactitude, but to shape and nurture the faith of the intended readers.'

Steven Carr · 07-22-2010, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

The gospel of John remains an enigma. Written around 90-110 CE according to most scholars, yet it contains snippets of truth not found in the synoptics. At one time everyone ignored this passage: " Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda, and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades."
John 5:2
Then between 1957-1962, a series of archeological investigations uncovered a pool in the very area described by John.

Doesn't this prove that the Gospel of John could not have been written before 70 AD, because we are told that no information about this pool survived after 70 AD?

So nobody after 70 AD could have been able to access documents before 70 AD which mentioned this pool. They were all, it seems, lost, which means that any Gospel before 70 AD would also have been lost.

aa5874 · 07-22-2010, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Larry Hurtado has an excellent article on the Gospel according to 'John' at http://larryhurtado.files.wordpress....tion-paper.doc

Professor Hurtado writes 'The author’s reason for giving his account of the ministry of Jesus was entirely theological, not to serve some academic modern interest in historical exactitude, but to shape and nurture the faith of the intended readers.'

But, how is gJohn only theological when the author wrote about events that were WITNESSED by the disciples and his followers?

The trial of Jesus before Pilate, the crucifixion, and the resurrection do not appear to be theology but it seems the writer is describing events the he/she is claiming did actually occur.

The Jesus story in gJohn MUST have been plausible in antiquity since they were believed to be true even by the Church.

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02-25-2010, 03:31 AM	#23
angelo Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 5,706	Was he crucified? He couldn't have been if he never existed in the first place now could he?

07-21-2010, 12:24 PM	#26
bacht Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,305	What about the Johanine epistles, are they still considered to have some relationship with the gospel? If so do they offer any clues about this 'community', like where or when they were active?

07-22-2010, 01:57 AM	#27
angelo Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 5,706	The gospel of John remains an enigma. Written around 90-110 CE according to most scholars, yet it contains snippets of truth not found in the synoptics. At one time everyone ignored this passage: " Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda, and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades." John 5:2 Then between 1957-1962, a series of archeological investigations uncovered a pool in the very area described by John.

07-22-2010, 03:13 AM	#28
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Larry Hurtado has an excellent article on the Gospel according to 'John' at http://larryhurtado.files.wordpress....tion-paper.doc Professor Hurtado writes 'The author’s reason for giving his account of the ministry of Jesus was entirely theological, not to serve some academic modern interest in historical exactitude, but to shape and nurture the faith of the intended readers.'

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