Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jobar · 07-18-2009, 07:37 PM

Quote:

At the close of the 8th century, Pope Hadrian I (772-795) confirmed the decrees of the 6th Synod of Constantinople held almost a century earlier and commanded that thereafter "the figure of a man should take the place of a lamb on the cross."

It took Christianity eight centuries to develop the ubiquitous symbol of its suffering Savior.

For 800 years, its Christ on the cross had been a lamb.

But if a real flesh and blood Jesus had actually been crucified, why was his place on the cross so long usurped by a lamb?

I don't want to start yet another thread on mythicism here. Instead, I want to find some specific images, which I recall seeing in this forum several years ago, and can't find now.

I distinctly remember seeing pictures of 2 different crucifixes, both of which had a man's body with the head of a lamb as the crucified savior.

There are several images I've found where a lamb is shown on the cross:

These aren't what I'm looking for. The ones I recall were more like the animal-headed Egyptian representations of some of their gods, for instance Bast, or Anubis.

Might anyone here know about these images?

Clivedurdle · 07-19-2009, 03:11 AM

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI...k_457-2437.jpg

Clivedurdle · 07-19-2009, 03:19 AM

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08755b.htm

Catholic Encyclopaedia discusses this but I can't see links to pictures!

mountainman · 07-19-2009, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08755b.htm

Catholic Encyclopaedia discusses this but I can't see links to pictures!

Quote:

The Lamb (in Early Christian Symbolism)

One of the few Christian symbols dating from the first century is that of the Good Shepherd carrying on His shoulders a lamb or a sheep, with two other sheep at his side. Between the first and the fourth century eighty-eight frescoes of this type were depicted in the Roman catacombs.

Of course, the good shepherd was not christian.
The good shepherd was perhaps Apollonius of Tyana.

Of course Christ becomes specifically the "Good Shepherd" after 325 CE.
Constantine was the grandson of a Danube goat herder.
He knew exactly how to separate the sheep and the goats.

Jobar · 07-21-2009, 06:09 PM

I've asked this question in a number of different venues; mountainman, you and I discussed it back in February, on TR. The Alexamenos graffito was mentioned.

I find it strange that the particular images I'm looking for seem so difficult to find. I really wish I had copied the one I saw some 5 years ago!

Jobar · 07-21-2009, 06:17 PM

Whoa. While searching for the images I refer to above, I found-

mountainman · 07-21-2009, 07:32 PM

How about this from Agnus Dei [WIKI].
Admittedly this is not a lamb on the cross
but rather a cross on the lamb.

Switch89 · 07-21-2009, 07:54 PM

The Alexamenos graffito depicts a crucified donkey.

I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for, but the AG is interesting nonetheless, and you should have a gander:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito

aa5874 · 07-21-2009, 08:10 PM

But based on Tertullian in Ad Nationes, christians only had an unadorned cross, i.e a cross without any image. It was the Pagans that had the form of a man or god on crosses.

Ad Nationes 1.12

Quote:

As for him who affirms that we are “the priesthood of a cross,” we shall claim him as our co-religionist. A cross is, in its material, a sign of wood; among yourselves also the object of worship is a wooden figure. Only, while with you the figure is a human one, with us the wood is its own figure...........You are ashamed, I suppose, to worship unadorned and simple crosses.

It would appear Tertullian's cross had neither man nor lamb.

Jobar · 07-22-2009, 06:08 PM

I know about the Alexamenos graffito. It has a crucified human figure with a donkey's head; the image I recall was a photograph of a carved crucifix, with the crucified figure very clearly a human body with a lamb's head. If you ever saw it, there'd be no doubt it's the image I'm looking for!

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07-19-2009, 03:11 AM	#2
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI...k_457-2437.jpg

07-19-2009, 03:19 AM	#3
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08755b.htm Catholic Encyclopaedia discusses this but I can't see links to pictures!

07-21-2009, 06:09 PM	#5
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	I've asked this question in a number of different venues; mountainman, you and I discussed it back in February, on TR. The Alexamenos graffito was mentioned. I find it strange that the particular images I'm looking for seem so difficult to find. I really wish I had copied the one I saw some 5 years ago!

07-21-2009, 06:17 PM	#6
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Whoa. While searching for the images I refer to above, I found-

07-21-2009, 07:32 PM	#7
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	How about this from Agnus Dei [WIKI]. Admittedly this is not a lamb on the cross but rather a cross on the lamb.

07-21-2009, 07:54 PM	#8
Switch89 Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Montgomery, AL Posts: 453	The Alexamenos graffito depicts a crucified donkey. I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for, but the AG is interesting nonetheless, and you should have a gander: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito

07-22-2009, 06:08 PM	#10
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	I know about the Alexamenos graffito. It has a crucified human figure with a donkey's head; the image I recall was a photograph of a carved crucifix, with the crucified figure very clearly a human body with a lamb's head. If you ever saw it, there'd be no doubt it's the image I'm looking for!

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