Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Loomis · 09-25-2005, 01:16 PM

I am testing a hypothesis that says that the myth of ‘Jesus as a son of God’ began (at least in part) from the theme of ‘Yahweh as a son of El.’

I’m wondering if that theme didn’t get twisted around a little bit until Yahweh turned into something that ‘didn’t happen yet’: a messiah.

(The concept of a messiah might be useful to fix the artifacts that were left behind when the theme of “Yahweh is El�? won out over “Yahweh is a son of El�?.)

To that end, does anybody know of any place in the NT where Jesus is clearly identified as a son of Yahweh (and not as a son of El, or a vague/ ambiguous elohim)?

John Kesler · 09-25-2005, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

To that end, does anybody know of any place in the NT where Jesus is clearly identified as a son of Yahweh (and not as a son of El, or a vague/ ambiguous elohim)?

Since Yahweh and elohim are Hebrew words and the N.T. was written in Greek, we have to rely on N.T. quotations of the O.T. See Acts 13:33 and Hebrews 1:5, 5:5 which all quote Psalm 2:7 and attribute a father-son relationship to Yahweh and Jesus.

Quote:

Psalm 2:7
7 I will tell of the decree of Yahweh: He said to me, "You are my son; today I have begotten you.

Acts 13:33
33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, 'You are my Son;today I have begotten you.'

Hebrews 1:4-5
4 [Jesus] having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son;today I have begotten you"?

Hebrews 5:5
5 So also Christ did not glorify himself in becoming a high priest, but was appointed by the one who said to him, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you";

Thomas II · 09-25-2005, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

I am testing a hypothesis that says that the myth of ‘Jesus as a son of God’ began (at least in part) from the theme of ‘Yahweh as a son of El.’

I’m wondering if that theme didn’t get twisted around a little bit until Yahweh turned into something that ‘didn’t happen yet’: a messiah.

(The concept of a messiah might be useful to fix the artifacts that were left behind when the theme of “Yahweh is El�? won out over “Yahweh is a son of El�?.)

To that end, does anybody know of any place in the NT where Jesus is clearly identified as a son of Yahweh (and not as a son of El, or a vague/ ambiguous elohim)?

The fact is that Yahweh,the god of Moses,was just a TRIBAL LOCAL "god" from the Mount/Volcano Horeb, Sinai Peninsula.
Jesus dad is unknown, but was probably Antipater.
Please,it is about time we stop relating Jesus and Yahwhe. No relation whatsoever.

:wave:

Loomis · 09-25-2005, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Since Yahweh and elohim are Hebrew words and the N.T. was written in Greek, we have to rely on N.T. quotations of the O.T. See Acts 13:33 and Hebrews 1:5, 5:5 which all quote Psalm 2:7 and attribute a father-son relationship to Yahweh and Jesus.

Thanks John. You hit the nail on the head – that is exactly the type of stuff I was looking for.

I don’t want to get way off topic, but since you mentioned Psalm 2:7, I have a question for anyone who might know:

The translation you posted reads, today I have begotten you, but I’ve noticed that some translations read, today I have become your Father.

I see a subtle difference, because the second translation allows for a time when the Father was not the Father.

Which translation is more correct?

Loomis · 09-25-2005, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

Please,it is about time we stop relating Jesus and Yahwhe. No relation whatsoever.

We disagree.

Quote:

John 12:37-41

Although he had performed so many miraculous signs before them, they still refused to believe in him, so that the word of Isaiah the prophet would be fulfilled. He said, “Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?�? For this reason they could not believe, because again Isaiah said,

“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
so that they would not see with their eyes
and understand with their heart,
and turn to me, and I would heal them.�?

Isaiah said these things because he saw Christ’s glory, and spoke about him.

Isaiah was talking about Yahweh. The author of John 12 thought that Jesus was Yahweh.

The things attributed to Jesus in John 12 are the very same things that are attributed to Yahweh in Isaiah 6:10 & 53:1.

Please, relation.

Even when we type in majestic plural.

09-25-2005, 01:16 PM	#1
Loomis Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: The recesses of Zaphon Posts: 969	Was Yahweh ever Jesus’ dad? I am testing a hypothesis that says that the myth of ‘Jesus as a son of God’ began (at least in part) from the theme of ‘Yahweh as a son of El.’ I’m wondering if that theme didn’t get twisted around a little bit until Yahweh turned into something that ‘didn’t happen yet’: a messiah. (The concept of a messiah might be useful to fix the artifacts that were left behind when the theme of “Yahweh is El�? won out over “Yahweh is a son of El�?.) To that end, does anybody know of any place in the NT where Jesus is clearly identified as a son of Yahweh (and not as a son of El, or a vague/ ambiguous elohim)?

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