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Old 12-08-2005, 02:12 PM   #101
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Where does it say anywhere in the bible that the Beloved Disciple = John, son of Zebedee?
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Old 12-08-2005, 02:25 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iasion
1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are in the Dispersion: Greetings.

The introduction of the letter, mentions he is a "servant" of God and of Lord Jesus Christ (ie. a typical faithful phrase invoking their highest names) - totally FAILS to mention he is brother to Jesus.
I agree with you Iasion, but there is a clincher to your argument that is very important. A possible counterargument is James would not want to throw around names, to place himself in importance. But, let's look at a little passage in Jude:

Jude 1.1:
"Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James, To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:"

If James is the same James as in Paul "brother of the Lord", and Jude identifies himself with James, the (so-called) brother of Jesus, why wouldn't he make that claim? He doesn't mind giving saying he's brother of James. Jude, also, never mentions Jesus in a historical manner. However, he does quote out of 1 Enoch directly (Jude 1.14-15), which mentions the Son of Man as the Christ (1 Enoch 70.23). Could it be where Christianity came from, or something like it?
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Old 12-08-2005, 03:14 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orthodox_Freethinker
Something which you have ignored is that if John did not personally compose the fourth Gospel, that would not rule out it being based on his own testimony. The most plausible explanation is that it was based on the beloved disciple's eye witness.
Furthermore, you've also ignored that The Catholic Study Bible, one of many competing Catholic Bibles, does not equate to the official statement of the Vatican.
However I gave you four quotes from the New American Bible relating much the same thing as Amaleq13 stated, and that does equate to the official statement of the Vatican. Please read up on the significance and meaning of Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat.
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Old 12-08-2005, 03:48 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomboyMom
Where did anyone in this thread assert this?
My "here" referred to this board, where the Jesus-myth idea is advocated regularly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomboyMom
It would not be possible to disprove that there was a man who lived in Israel around 2000 years ago named Yeshua.
Non sequitur. O_F was criticised for relying upon his underlying assumptions and ignoring the majority position of scholars with the suggestion that atheists would never do such a thing ("Our 'philosophical assumptions' are that evidence is what's required to prove something. Fancy that! We hold the accepted positions by scholoars and he gives us a link by a minority group to assert it as fact.")(my emphasis). My reply simply notes that many atheists here have no trouble advocating the Jesus-myth idea even though scholars seem to reject it utterly. Ya think some underlying assumptions might be at work there too? Pot and kettle seem well acquainted all around.
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Old 12-08-2005, 05:53 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darstec
However I gave you four quotes from the New American Bible relating much the same thing as Amaleq13 stated, and that does equate to the official statement of the Vatican. Please read up on the significance and meaning of Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat.
The New American Bible is, again, one of many competing Catholic Bibles from a broad range of New Testament scholarship.
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Old 12-08-2005, 07:41 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orthodox_Freethinker
Something which you have ignored is that if John did not personally compose the fourth Gospel, that would not rule out it being based on his own testimony.
What reliable evidence rules it in?

Quote:
The most plausible explanation is that it was based on the beloved disciple's eye witness.
Explanation of what?

Quote:
Furthermore, you've also ignored that The Catholic Study Bible, one of many competing Catholic Bibles, does not equate to the official statement of the Vatican.
What does this have to do with your mistaken understanding of what constitutes "mainstream scholarship"?
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Old 12-09-2005, 02:48 AM   #107
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Greetings John,

Thanks for your comments here and there :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by John A. Broussard
Aw, c'mon.
If your brother turned out to be god almighty and you were writing your memoirs, would you talk about his nappies?
Ah,
Perhaps James was embarassed -
Jesus wet the bed or something?
That's why we hear nothing till he was 12...
:-)

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Old 12-09-2005, 02:58 AM   #108
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Greetings,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orthodox_Freethinker
The epistle of James was written by a Jewish Christian, for Jewish Christians. Its content does not concern the person of Jesus but what Jesus taught.
Pardon?

James quotes "Love Thy Neighbour as Thyself" - but NOT from Jesus, just "scripture".

James preaches about adultery - NO mention of Jesus' teachings.

James reminds people not to curse or speak evil - NO mention of Jesus' teachings on that.

There is no teachings from Jesus in the letter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Orthodox_Freethinker
How could James not mention Jesus despite being "a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ"? (Ja 1:1)
Pardon?
I said the name Jesus is mentioned twice in the letter - and it is.
But nothing ABOUT Jesus.
Nor any teachings FROM Jesus.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Orthodox_Freethinker
Why would a Jew consider a dead corpse his Lord?
Why would anyone do that?
Why would anyone think someone would do that?
Why did you mention this bizarre idea?


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Old 12-09-2005, 03:08 AM   #109
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Greetings,

Thanks for your comments :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by guy_683930
I agree with you Iasion, but there is a clincher to your argument that is very important. A possible counterargument is James would not want to throw around names, to place himself in importance.
Because religious figures would never do that :-)



Quote:
Originally Posted by guy_683930
If James is the same James as in Paul "brother of the Lord", and Jude identifies himself with James, the (so-called) brother of Jesus, why wouldn't he make that claim? He doesn't mind giving saying he's brother of James.
Indeed.
This whole "brother" of Jesus thing is suspect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by guy_683930
Jude, also, never mentions Jesus in a historical manner. However, he does quote out of 1 Enoch directly (Jude 1.14-15), which mentions the Son of Man as the Christ (1 Enoch 70.23). Could it be where Christianity came from, or something like it?
Yup,
the origin of Jesus is in such writings as Enoch, not history.


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Old 12-09-2005, 06:53 AM   #110
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Default On manners, for Orthodox_Freethinker

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomboyMom
Orthodox: Can you refute this? Are there any roughly contemporary non-Christian historical documents that verify Jesus's birth, life, death and resurrection?
Quote:
O_F: This is the second time I have asked you to provide evidence for your assertion. What conclusion should I draw from your failure to do so?
I have frequently been heard on these boards decrying the bad manners of Christians. It is as though their religion requires them to sacrifice common decency. Orthodox: When you start a conversation, and someone else replies with a question, it is simply rude to ignore them. If you don't know the answer, then etiquette expects you to to reply, "I don't know." This is not simply a matter of social form, but of personal courage--the courage to admit when you're wrong. A side benefit of this for you is that it increases your credibility on the boards. The tactic of making assertions, then failing to provide evidence for them when challenged, undermines your credibility on this forum. Further, people cannot be blamed if they jump to the conclusion that the reason you fail to answer the direct challenge is that you cannot, that is, that you were wrong and don't have the chutzpah to admit it. I am not very knowledgeable on this subject, which is why I have asked the questions I posed in this thread. You have lost a valuable opportunity to educate me. If you know of any sources requested, would you be so kind as to provide them. If not, would you be so brave as to admit it. If you fail to do either, you should stop making this and similar assertions on this board.
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