Freethought & Rationalism Archive

youngalexander · 06-12-2008, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Might the cross have been introduced by Constantine after a certain battle?

There is no might about it. Crosses do not appear in Christian art until after big Con.

Clivedurdle · 06-12-2008, 08:39 AM

Therefore anything with a Cross in it is post Constantine? And how is xian art defined? Might it include books?

Britannica is fascinating, but does seem to show a bias in favour of xianity.

Quote:

After a period of initial indifference toward the Christians, Diocletian ended his reign by unleashing against them, in 303, the last and most violent of their persecutions. It was urged on him by his Caesar Galerius and prolonged in the East for a decade (until 311) by Galerius as Augustus and by other emperors.

As in earlier persecutions, the initiative arose at the heart of government; some emperors, as outraged by the Christians as many private citizens, considered it their duty to maintain harmony with the gods, the pax deorum, by which alone the empire flourished.

Accordingly, Decius and Valerian in the 250s had dealt severely with the Christians, requiring them to demonstrate their apostasy by offering sacrifice at the local temples, and for the first time had directly struck the church’s clergy and property. There were scores of Christians who preferred death, though the great majority complied or hid themselves. Within a matter of months after he had begun his attacks, however, Decius had died (251), and the bloody phase of Valerian’s attacks also lasted only months (259/260). His son Gallienus had issued an edict of tolerance, and Aurelian was even appealed to by the church of Antioch to settle an internal dispute.

Christianity had now become open and established, thanks to the power of its God so often, it seemed, manifested in miraculous acts and to the firmness with which converts were secured in a new life and community. The older slanders—cannibalism and incest—that had troubled the Apologists in the 2nd century no longer commanded credence. A measure of respectability had been won, along with recruits from the upper classes and gifts of land and money.

By the end of the 3rd century Christians actually predominated in some of the smaller Eastern towns or districts, and they were well represented in Italy, Gaul, and Africa around Carthage; all told, they numbered perhaps as many as 5 million out of the empire’s total population of 60 million.

Occasional meetings on disputed matters might bring together dozens of bishops, and it was this institution or phenomenon that the Great Persecutions sought to defeat. The progress of a religion that could not accept the religious basis of the tetrarchy and certain of whose members were imprudent and provocative, as in the incidents at Nicomedia (where a church was built across from Diocletian’s palace), finally aroused Galerius’ fanaticism. In 303–304 several edicts, each increasingly stringent, ordered the destruction of the churches, the seizure of sacred books, the imprisonment of the clergy, and a sentence of death for all those who refused to sacrifice to the Roman gods.

In the East, where Galerius was imposing his ideas more and more on the aging Diocletian, the persecution was extremely violent, especially in Egypt, Palestine, and the Danubian regions. In Italy, Maximian, zealous at the beginning, quickly tired; and in Gaul, Constantius merely destroyed a few churches without carrying reprisals any further. Nevertheless, Christianity could no longer be eradicated, for the people of the empire and even some officials no longer felt the blind hatred for Christians that had typified previous centuries.

The Later Roman Empire » The recovery of the empire and the establishment of the dominate (270–337) » Struggle for power

The first tetrarchy had ended on May 1, 305; the second did not last long. After Constantius died at Eboracum in 306, the armies of Britain and Gaul, without observing the rules of the tetrarchic system, had hastened to proclaim Constantine, the young son of Constantius, as Augustus. Young Maxentius, the son of Maximian (who had never wanted to retire), thereupon had himself proclaimed in Rome, recalled his father into service, and got rid of Severus.

Thus, in 307–308 there was great confusion. Seven emperors had, or pretended to have, the title of Augustus: Maximian, Galerius, Constantine, Maxentius, Maximinus Daia, Licinius (who had been promoted Augustus in 308 by Galerius against Constantine), and, in Africa, the usurper Domitius Alexander.

This situation was clarified by successive eliminations. In 310, after numerous intrigues, old Maximian was killed by his son-in-law Constantine, and in the following year Alexander was slain by one of Maxentius’ praetorian prefects. In 311 Galerius died of illness a few days after having admitted the failure of his persecutions by proclaiming an edict of tolerance. There remained, in the West, Constantine and Maxentius and in the East, Licinius and Maximinus Daia.

Constantine, the best general, invaded Italy with a strong army of faithful Gauls and defeated Maxentius near the Milvian Bridge, not far from Rome. While attempting to escape, Maxentius drowned. Constantine then made an agreement with Licinius, and the two rallied the Eastern Christians to their side by guaranteeing them religious tolerance in the Edict of Milan (313). This left Maximinus Daia, now isolated and regarded as a persecutor, in a weak position; attacked by Licinius near Adrianople, he fell ill and died soon afterward, in 313. This left the empire with two leaders, Constantine and Licinius, allied in outward appearances and now brothers-in-law as a result of Licinius’ marriage to Constantine’s sister.

The Later Roman Empire » The recovery of the empire and the establishment of the dominate (270–337) » The reign of Constantine

Constantine and Licinius soon disputed among themselves for the empire. Constantine attacked his adversary for the first time in 316, taking the dioceses of Pannonia and Moesia from him. A truce between them lasted 10 years. In 316 Diocletian died in Salona, which he had never felt a desire to leave despite the collapse of his political creation. Constantine and Licinius then reverted to the principles of heredity, designating three potential Caesars from among their respective sons, all still infants, with the intention of securing their dynasties (two sons of Constantine and one of Licinius). The dynastic concept, however, required the existence of only a single emperor, who imposed his own descendance. Although Constantine favoured the Christians, Licinius resumed the persecutions, and in 324 war erupted once again. Licinius, defeated first at Adrianople and then in Anatolia, was obliged to surrender and, together with his son, was executed. Next, Constantine’s third son, Constantius, was in turn named Caesar, as his two elder brothers, Crispus and Constantine the Younger, had been some time before.

The second Flavian dynasty was thus founded, and Constantine let it be believed that his father, Flavius Constantius (Chlorus), was descended from Claudius Gothicus.

Constantine’s conversion to Christianity had a far-reaching effect. Like his father, he had originally been a votary of the Sun; worshiping at the Grand Temple of the Sun in the Vosges Mountains of Gaul, he had had his first vision—albeit a pagan one.

During his campaign against Maxentius, he had had a second vision—a lighted cross in the sky—after which he had painted on his men’s shields a figure that was perhaps Christ’s monogram (although he probably had Christ confused with the Sun in his manifestation as summa divinitas [“the highest divinity”]).

After his victory he declared himself Christian. His conversion remains somewhat mysterious and his contemporaries—Lactantius and Eusebius of Caesarea—are scarcely enlightening and even rather contradictory on the subject. But it was doubtless a sincere conversion, for Constantine had a religious turn of mind. He was also progressive and greatly influenced by the capable bishops who surrounded him from the very beginning.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...#ref=ref298871

So xianity gets to be the state religion following a power battle at a time when the Empire is falling apart with seven emperors at the same time, and it has long been seen as treacherous but gets slowly accepted, and the winner in the power battle uses a vision to give this new religion power.

It struggles along for a century or so.

Toto · 06-12-2008, 07:21 PM

Skepticism grows

Quote:

"I can only judge the findings once I have read the full report, but from what has been published so far I am not convinced that there is any evidence pointing to the fact that the cave was used for Christian worship in the first century or that there is any connection between the later church above and the cave below," said Israeli archaeologist Boaz Zissu of Bar-Ilan University.

. . . .

"A few shards of pottery do not prove this was used for worship or used by early Christians ... we do know that early Christians were Jews who believed the Messiah had arrived but otherwise behaved very much like their (Jewish) neighbors. (If the claim is true) I would expect to find in the cave dishes and cups of the same type used by Jews who followed Jewish dietary laws," he said. "A claim like this needs to have indisputable evidence, perhaps some inscriptions."

Dominican Father Jerome Murphy-O'Connor, a professor of New Testament at the French Biblical and Archaeological School of Jerusalem, said the northern location of the cave meant a connection to the 70 disciples of Jesus would "astound" him "very much."

He said he personally has doubts about the tradition of Christians fleeing to Pella, Jordan, because if the Christians needed to flee they easily could have escaped to what is today the city of Ramallah, West Bank. In addition, if such a flight had occurred, the Christians would have been more likely to take an established road, which would have led them south, across from the city of Beit Shean in the Jordan Valley, he said.

It also would be important to know in which direction the apse is facing, he said. Early Christian places of worship had east-facing apses, he said, noting that in general the first mention of cave churches began in the Byzantine period when monks wandering in the desert would seek out caves with some sort of apselike structure facing east.

...

The good father made some disparaging remarks about "hype."

Charles Gadda · 06-12-2008, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Skepticism grows...

Yes, but mark my word -- first it will be the subject of an appropriatedly "neutral" treatment by the great Hershel Shanks and his highly respected "Biblical Archaeology Review"; then it will make its way into televised documentaries featuring reenactments of the journey of the 70 (long-haired actors wearing robes); at some point there will probably be conferences "debating" it; and ultimately it will become a "fact" casually referred to on hundreds of websites.

...

Quote:

The good father made some disparaging remarks about "hype."

Hmm. If he did that, I guess he must be a "revolting polemist."

Toto · 06-12-2008, 11:55 PM

Polemicist? I bet he is, and he's also connected to a competing archeological money-making enterprise, so he knows something about what's going on.

Stephen Colbert worked this into his comedy routine.

BAR has a fairly neutral article here which links to a nice photo gallery - I hadn't seen photo number 2 before.

But no photos yet of the mosiac.

Clivedurdle · 06-13-2008, 04:30 AM

Quote:

The second Flavian dynasty was thus founded,

From EB quote above.

When Henry Tudor became king, he arranged for the Arthurian legends to be tweaked in his favour - it is common practice of kings and emperors to rewrite history in their favour.

Now might the second Flavian dynasty have written a back story about his first Flavian ancestors?

Backdating his new religion of his new Rome would be an obvious move, getting rid of all the whinges about superstitios.

Would make sense of the contradictions between the reality of pre Constantinian xianity we are finding and the cross based version promulgated post Constantine and backdated to the first Flavians.

gstafleu · 06-13-2008, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

A photo with a cross...

And a cross in the middle of a sunburst at that. Acharya will be happy!

Gerard Stafleu

Cege · 06-13-2008, 08:14 AM

Quote:

The discovery lying underneath Saint Gorgeous Church in Rihab is "amazing, because we have evidence to believe this church sheltered the early Christians, the 70 disciples of Jesus Christ", he said.

The early Christians, described in the mosaic inscription on the floor of St Georgeous as "the 70 beloved by God and Divine," are said to have fled from Jerusalem during the persecution of Christians to the northern part of Jordan, particularly to Rihab, he added.

Citing historical sources, Hassan said the 70 lived and practised their rituals in secrecy in this underground church.

Where does the idea of "the 70 disciples of Jesus Christ" fleeing Jerusalem even come from? gLuke 11 describes 72 followers sent out by Jesus to heal the sick and declare the kingdom of God. If Hassan is referring to that story of 70 or 72, he probably should catch up on his NT reading.

If anyone knows what Hassan is supposed to be describing, please share.

Toto · 06-13-2008, 01:01 PM

70 - 72 - who's counting? OK, some mathematically literate skeptics are. But numbers in the Bible are rarely to be treated as literal. 70 and 72 are both symbolic numbers. But we have no evidence that this incident ever happened in any case.

Seventy_Disciples

Quote:

The number is seventy in manuscripts in the Alexandrian (such as Codex Sinaiticus) and Caesarean text traditions but seventy-two in most other Alexandrian and Western texts. It may derive from the 70 nations of Genesis or the many other 70 in the Bible, or the 72 translators of the Septuagint from the Letter of Aristeas.[2] In editing the Vulgate, Jerome selected the reading of seventy-two.

Cege · 06-13-2008, 06:00 PM

Even if the incident actually happened, whether with 70 or 72, it doesn't have anything to do with "the 70 disciples of Jesus...said to have fled from Jerusalem during the persecution of Christians to the northern part of Jordan, particularly to Rihab".

Where is that supposedly said? Certainly not anywheres in the NT.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-12-2008, 11:55 PM	#35
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Polemicist? I bet he is, and he's also connected to a competing archeological money-making enterprise, so he knows something about what's going on. Stephen Colbert worked this into his comedy routine. BAR has a fairly neutral article here which links to a nice photo gallery - I hadn't seen photo number 2 before. But no photos yet of the mosiac.

06-13-2008, 06:00 PM	#40
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	Even if the incident actually happened, whether with 70 or 72, it doesn't have anything to do with "the 70 disciples of Jesus...said to have fled from Jerusalem during the persecution of Christians to the northern part of Jordan, particularly to Rihab". Where is that supposedly said? Certainly not anywheres in the NT.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.