Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 10-26-2009, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wordy

Is it not possible to learn from current time sect leaders?

Take the Falun Gong in China. Them too openly admit they see something great in their leader. To us who are not supporters of him he looks as flawed as any David Choresh or what name they have. Charismatic people who believe in their own truth and get supporters to follow them. Falun Gong believers also let themselves be caught and mistreated instead of giving it all up for something less dangerous like buddhism that doesn't challenge the authorities.

Is it not most likely that the Christians way back in time was same kind of people and that Jesus if he existed was a typical Falun Gong leader. A kind of sect or cult leader. They had numerous such at that time too. Simeon Bar Kochba or something and many others named by Josephus? hundreds of them?

Various people have tried to see Jesus as a first century cult leader based on whichever modern cult leader. Ehrmann has mentioned David Khoresh, but has not pursued the analogy. Robert Price has written about the case of Sabbatai Zvi, a bipolar 17th century Jewish prophet who was convinced he was the son of god in his manic phases, and then tried to take it back in the depressive part of the cycel - but his followers preferred the mania.

So, yes, it is easy to take some current cult and imagine that 1st century Christianity was something like that. We just have no evidence.

aa5874 · 10-26-2009, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

If it actually happened, Pilate probably had someone on his staff make an official record of some sort. If that document had somehow managed to survive and were now discovered and authenticated, I'd be convinced.

So would any Jew crucified for blasphemy do?

Did the Romans crucify Jews for blasphemy against YHWH? Do we have any evidence of this, besides the obvious, of course?

If so, perhaps we can look there.

This is an excellent question.

It would seem likely that the Romans would encourage Jews to abandon their traditional beliefs about their God and worship Roman Emperors as Gods and allow the effigies of the Emperors to be placed in the sacred Temple.

Why would Pilate crucify Jesus for blasphemy against a God that Pilate himself did not worship and of a people whom he detested, based on Josephus and Philo?

maryhelena · 10-27-2009, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Rabbits in the precambrian

What would sufficient evidence of a specific Jesus crucified by Pilate for claiming to be the king of the Jews be? (BTW - did Jews exist?)

Where are we now?

Is it possible to get any further?

No - unless Jesus comes back to earth and shows us all - via satellite - the scars from his pierced hands and feet.....oh, and has medical experts on hand to support his claims...

Other than that, how about the idea that the crucifixion is a red herring? Useful perhaps in a scenario about dying and rising gods (i.e. the godman had to die - method incidental...)but as a criterion on which to base a historical re-construction of Christianity its nothing but a means to divert attention away from how it all began.....

Doug Shaver · 10-27-2009, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

So would any Jew crucified for blasphemy do?

If Jesus was crucified, it was not for blasphemy.

dog-on · 10-27-2009, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

So would any Jew crucified for blasphemy do?

If Jesus was crucified, it was not for blasphemy.

Well, that's what the good book says!

You must be thinking of another Jesus.

show_no_mercy · 10-27-2009, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

If Jesus was crucified, it was not for blasphemy.

Well, that's what the good book says!

You must be thinking of another Jesus.

Maybe Jesus was crucified for atheism? But then he couldn't have been Jewish. Wouldn't that be ironic!

Amaleq13 · 10-27-2009, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

If Jesus was crucified, it was not for blasphemy.

Well, that's what the good book says!

You must be thinking of another Jesus.

You must be thinking of his trial before the Sanhedrin rather than the trial before Pilate. Jesus was presumably convicted of sedition and sentenced to crucifixion.

If the Sanhedrin executed him for blasphemy, I believe it would have been by stoning.

Solo · 10-27-2009, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Maybe Jesus was crucified for atheism? But then he couldn't have been Jewish. Wouldn't that be ironic!

What do you mean ? There were no Jewish atheists at the time ?

Jiri

Solo · 10-27-2009, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Is it possible to get any further?

No - unless Jesus comes back to earth and shows us all - via satellite - the scars from his pierced hands and feet.....oh, and has medical experts on hand to support his claims...

Oh...puhleeze...do not, I pray you, give Benny Hinn any ideas !

Jiri

dog-on · 10-28-2009, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Well, that's what the good book says!

You must be thinking of another Jesus.

You must be thinking of his trial before the Sanhedrin rather than the trial before Pilate. Jesus was presumably convicted of sedition and sentenced to crucifixion.

If the Sanhedrin executed him for blasphemy, I believe it would have been by stoning.

Is that the latest rewrite?

I thought those guys were still on strike, guess I was mistaken...

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