Originally Posted by Duvduv

... All I point out is that Justin says NOTHING substantive about Marcion, yet whole sandcastles are built about Marcion's epistles, gospel, etc. It's ludicrous....

Originally Posted by Toto

Marcion is referenced by Irenaeus, Hippolytus, and Celsus, and Marcion's writings have been reconstructed through references in Tertullian's Adversus Marcionem and Epiphanius' Panarion.

This is about as good as it gets in this field.

Originally Posted by Duvduv

There are no independent sources for anything written to said about Marcion or Marcionites, only what is handed out by apologists who rely on each other. Nothing of his writings or his texts exists. Nothing is known independently of any followers either. Nothing from the second century. The closest individual alleged to have been able to know something would have been the second century Justin, but he says nothing significant about any writings or texts held by Marcion.

Originally Posted by Toto

So?

If you are going for complete certainty, you might as well not talk about ancient history. Find another hobby.

The reconstructions of Marcion's writings are attempts to make the best sense of what evidence there is. If you want to continue this conversation, at least show where there is a better reconstruction, and why.

Take into account that the heresiologists' description of various heresies where shown to be relatively accurate, based on the Nag Hammadi manuscripts. There seems to be no particular reason to reject Tertullian as a source.

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Not even close to certainty....so there is no use building sand castles based on the uncorroborated claims of a couple of biased apologists with an agenda.

...

Originally Posted by Toto

This does not respond to any of my points. What is the effect of Tertullian's agenda in this case? Why does it cause you to reject even considering the multiple sources for Marcion, which do tend to corroborate each other?

Please stop using the term sand castle. There is lots of speculation built on smoke and mirrors in this field, in particular about Jesus' childhood and Paul's interactions with the Pillars. Marcion's gospel does not fit into that category.

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

You will never know how much it is that you are missing if you make no effort.
Anyone that is the least bit familiar with the idiomatic speech employed in these languages is aware that very little of these translations can be set in concrete as though there were no other English translation possible.
Each idiomatic word has a range of meanings, as does each idiomatic phrase. No English translation provides all of this range.
And when the language moves into word plays, and poetic compositions, any English 'translation' is so crude that it presents only a tiny fraction of the sense of the original language text.
It is not a matter (usually) of "rejecting the English translations provided by Professional Trained Translators", but of knowing enough of the language to supplement their translations with an expanding knowledge of the usages of these idioms in the original texts.

By the way aa, in this there are no such things as 'NEUTRAL' sources' in the translating of this material.
Every translator, or team of translators, and every translation in its word selections is bound to bring in the biases and blind spots of the translator(s).
That is why rather than being dependent upon opinions and word choices of others, no matter how 'expert' you might think them to be, it is best for you to study and to learn the words and languages for yourself.
Then you will know when someone is handing you something as being a 'translation' that is somewhat less than what the original text contains and conveys.
It is simply better scholarship to choose to become well educated in the original languages than to remain ignorant of their peculiarities and subject to manipulation by the biases, opinions, and deficient or faulty readings being supplied others.

Anything worth doing takes time and effort. You can 'blaze your own trail' or seek the advice of others here who have traveled this path before you.
I am certain that there are others here whom have acquainted themselves to some degree with the tasks involved in actually learning these languages and would willingly point you in the direction of those sources and exercises that they found to be most beneficial and effective in learning, thus helping you to do so with the minimum expenditure of time and effort on your part.

Originally Posted by Duvduv