shamrockhoax

hah. Night of the living dead jews. What is the hebrew word for 'brains'. Is Ash around?

Chili

It is 'blood' in this context with the 'earthquake' being the evidence that Elijah (blood) came to his rescue in revealing the saints as the-not-forsaken forces of Judaism = OT efficiency.

The earthquake is a direct result of the 'make-believe' Baptism in Matthew and the "why has thou forsaken me" is confirmation of this particular lack of knowledge that makes Matthew's messiah prophetic.

Compare this with John where there was no earthquake because John announced Jesus who therefore "bled water and blood" to confirm that "it [was] finished" and Jesus knew exactly what was going on (fully in charge and no longer prophetic = NT efficiency by example).

Chili

It was John the Baptist who prepared the way for Jesus in the Gospel of John and therefore the blood and water as evidence for the need of Catholic water for the fullness of salvation.

Mageth

Probably a bit of both, as the two are not either/or propositions. Much of his audience (particularly if they were Jews) would probably easily recognize the "midrash" and its intent (the targeted audience of Matthew appears to have been primarily Jews and Jewish Christians).

Sauron

And newly uncovered ancient manuscripts recently brought to light give us the first words of these resurrected Jews:

"Feh! I told your father that I would come to haunt him, that shmuck. Twenty years I lay in this grave, and he can't even visit me once?"

"Don't bother, I'll just crawl back into the grave and pull the dirt over top of me. I don't want to be a nuisance to anybody."

"They buried me here? In the economy section? Vat a shande; that's vat I get for buying a graveplot from a moyl."

(to each other)
"You look so pale. You aren't eating, I know you aren't. Force yourself."

offa

yes, there is extra-biblical references about the massacre "king herod's massacre of the innocent children"


I posted this before and it was removed without explanation.

Quote:

rationalOne User Join Date: June 2004 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 420 Evidence of King Herod's Massacre? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From what I've read there is no extrabiblical evidence the the Massacre of the Innocents as depicted in Matthew Chapter 2: Quote: 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men. It seems bizzarre that the writer(s) of Matthew would attempt to invent a story of such magnitude so close to the time of the supposed event. Even Josephus did not mention it. Did readers of the Gospels in the first century take issue with this?

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offa;

Josephus does mention it.

You need some definitions. "Bethlehem of Judea" and "Bethlehem" are two
different locations. "Bethlehem of Judea" is Qumran.

"All the children" does not mean "every one of the children". "All" is a pronoun
as opposed to "Many of the children". "All" and "Many" are separate sects.

"Children" does not mean adolescence. Children is an grouping depicting "those
in learning". When they get their cap (graduate) they become novices
(acolytes). The "children two years old and under" are in their early twenties.

Another name for "Qumran" is "Jerusalem".

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The following is about the slaughter of the "innocent children" who are a part
of the same body in the preceding chapter that tore down the eagle that adorned
the gate at Qumran (another location called Jerusalem).

The Antiquities of the Jews, Book 17, Chapter 6
(175) and when they were come, he ordered them all to be shut up
in the hippodrome, and sent for his sister Salome, and her husband
Alexas, and spoke thus to them: - "I shall die in a little time, so
great are my pains; which death ought to be cheerfully borne, and to
be welcomed by all men; but what principally troubles me is this,
that I shall die without being lamented, and without such mourning as
men usually expect at a king's death."
(176) For that he was not unacquainted with the temper of the
Jews, that his death would be a thing very desirable, and exceedingly
acceptable to them; because during his lifetime they were ready to
revolt from him, and to abuse the donations he had dedicated to God:
(177) that it was therefore their business to resolve to afford
him so alleviation of his great sorrows on this occasion; for that,
if they do not refuse him their consent in what he desires, he shall
have great mourning at his funeral, and such as never any king had
before him; for then the whole nation would mourn from their very
soul, which otherwise would be done in sport and mockery only.
(178) He desired therefore that as soon as they see he hath
given up the ghost, they shall place soldiers around the hippodrome,
while they do not know that he is dead; and that they shall not
declare his death to the multitude till this is done, but they shall
give orders to have those that are in custody shot with their darts;
and that this slaughter of them all will cause that he shall not miss
to rejoice on a double account; that as he is dying, they will make
him secure that his will shall be executed in what he charges them to
do; and that he shall have the honor of memorable mourning at his
funeral.
(179) So he deplored his condition, with tears in his eyes , and
obtested them by the kindness due from them, as of his kindred, and
by the faith they owed to God, and begged of them that they would not
hinder him of this honorable mourning at his funeral. So they
promised him not to transgress his commands.

also



(193) But then Salome and Alexas, before the king's death was
made known, dismissed those that were shut up in the hippodrome, and
told them that the king ordered them to go away to their own lands,
and take care of their own affairs, which was esteemed by the nation
a great benefit;



So, the innocent children were not really slaughtered, they were given a
reprieve. Also, Salome was very close to them (as was Herod) and these
people were the advent of Christianity ... that is, St. Joseph was
among them and he was one of the children less than two years old as
was his son, Jesus, who was actually just turning two. You see, Jesus
was born in 6/7 b.c.e. and was 38/39 years old when he survived the
crucifixion in 33 a.

offa

jbernier

I would object to calling this "midrash" as it is really quite different from the formal practice of midrash that we see in Rabbinic literature. It is much closer to the pesher commentaries we see in the Qumran literature. Aside from that technical point I would agree, for the most part.

There is no question that Matthew is trying to write Jesus into Israel's history (as the culmination of that history, no less). That, however, does not necessarily mean that he was not drawing upon what he thought were real events (which is not the same as saying that he was recording real events, merely that he thought he was). For instance, that he was trying to connect Jesus' life with Moses' does not mean that he did not think that Herod engaged in the slaughter.

jbernier

There is nothing in ancient literature identifying "Bethelhem of Judea" with Qumran. Nothing.

I am not sure how "'All' and 'Many' are separate sects." That sentence makes no sense to me. That having been said, the adjective usually translated as "All" in Matt. 2:16 is pantas, the accusative plural masculine form of pas. And it means "All." I know of no instance in either NT or ancient Greek literature in which it means "Many." Do you have an example in which this is the case?

Paidas (acc. pl. masc. of pais) can refer to adults - for instance, servants or slaves (even then it is more likely to refer to slaves and servants in their adolescence). It can also refer to children. The fact that it is said that they are two years and younger makes this the most straightforward reading. I have no idea where you got any of the stuff about graduation and novices (and since when did ancient academies have caps?).

I thought Qumran was Bethelhem. Which is it? Or is Bethelhem now Jerusalem, too?

There is nothing in the Josephus text to suggest that the eagle that was pulled down was at Qumran. You are playing games here: Equating Bethelhem of Judea with Qumran and Jerusalem with Qumran, thus conflating all references to either BofJ and Jerusalem as references to Qumran. The only problem is that there is absolutely no evidence to support reading these as Qumran. Can you cite examples in which Qumran is called by either of these names? In fact, can you cite examples in ancient literature which refer to Qumran at all?

Toto

Are you sure? We don't have any record of it.

Kosh

Perhaps the posting was on the Qumran Infidels message board, which is also known as "Internet Infidels"....