Clivedurdle

Has anyone asked if the story of Shadrach, Meshach), and Abednego and the fiery furnace are to do with Zarathustra?

premjan

I don't know of any similar story in Zoroastrianism - is there?

Clivedurdle

I meant is it another my god is better than your god story, this time between yhwh and Zarathustra's god - fire being the clue. And therefore evidence that they were trying to distinguish what might earlier have been the same thing!

premjan

That's an interesting thought - fire could not harm the Jews metaphorically. But I think Nebuchadnezzar was not a Zoroastrian for one thing - according to the story he worships a golden idol. Zoroastrianism doesn't have idols, only the eternal flame.

Clivedurdle

It feels like we may have a very complex collection of gods here! Prime mover god, god is love god, logos god, zeus god (But African or Greek?) yhwh god, ahura mazda god, emperor god, three for the price of one god, a few no god proposers!

It looks like in the Bible we have a very mixed fruit and nut cake of gods!

And pretending this is one and the same god is a classic political move!

Jedi Mind Trick

I don't think that Yahweh's monotheism need have any precursor found in Persia. There is ample evidence that it is homegrown.

What about the idea that Hebrew monotheism evolved out of an earlier henotheism which in turn came from the original Canaanite polytheism of El the high God and his 70 or so sons?

That's not to say that there was no Persian influence, for instance the similarity between the Messiah concept and that of the Zoroastrian Sayoshant is evidence that there was some borrowing, but monotheism in general could have easily been an independent evolution within Canaanite civilization.

premjan

I don't really see what is the big deal about monotheism. Living in a tribal framework, a single allegiance god makes perfect sense.

Jedi Mind Trick

Perhaps monotheism itself is the end result of a logical progression of sorts? And as a result could spring up independently in just about any culture. Aren’t the Cherokee monotheists independent of western influences?

Clivedurdle

Is not the concept of homegrown in this particular area ridiculous? We are talking about minor kingdoms being continuously trampled over by Medes, Persians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Romans etc etc.

There is monotheism down the road - it was not an isolated island - what is the problem? The Bible even puts the Garden of Eden in the middle of the Persian Empire!

Jedi Mind Trick

I don't think so, I could be wrong but with the exception of the Persians, who were not always monotheists, this area was trampled over mostly by polytheists. The evolutionary progression from High God El --> to isolation of one of his sons, Yaw or possibly Ea--> to transformation of that son into a High God, acquiring his father's attributes --> to exclusive worship of Ea / Yaw / Yahweh as the only God for Israel --> to Yahweh is the ONLY God... seems reasonable enough to me.

I don’t have a problem with the borrowing theory but to say that they could not have come to a monotheism all by themselves seems ignore some of the evidence both internal to the bible and external that Yahweh evolved from El worship.

Does anyone know when the Jews first came into contact with Zoroastrian Persia? Any evidence that this happened before the Hebrews were themselves on the way to monotheism?