Freethought & Rationalism Archive

bacht · 09-24-2010, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

None of the above. See dizzy's first post for what is essentially my take on "myth" in the broad sense.

The OP isn't asking for "the broad sense" though, but about its significance in the restricted sense dealing with biblical analysis, especially matters dealing with our being dogged by HJ/MJ blubberings.

Well, if we start with the OT the primary myth is the Exodus, the redemption of Yahweh's chosen people from captivity. There's a recurring theme of disaster and recovery, from the Philistines down to the Maccabees.

The cosmic mythology of Genesis 1 asserts the supremacy of God over other nature deities.

Proverbs describes the feminine figure of Wisdom as consort to God. She was celebrated as late as the book of Baruch.

Afterlife and angelology seem to appear either in the Babylonian or Persian eras. Maybe this was the time when Jewish apocalyptic developed in its recognizable form, the Day of the Lord's judgment.

spamandham · 09-24-2010, 10:51 AM

I use the term 'myth' very loosely to simply refer to the fact that the gospels are not records of historical events or biographies of a historical person, nor should we be trying to extract The Real Jesus™ from them.

Whether or not there was a historical person who we might in some sense refer to as the historical Jesus is an irrelevant and a needless complication, because he is not found in the texts we have, any more than the real Nicholas of Smyrna is found in "The Night Before Christmas". There may very well have been a Nicholas of Smyrna, but you won't find him in that poem, and he is not necessary to explain the history of the peirod that produced that poem.

JGL53 · 09-24-2010, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

"Myth" is one of those words that has several meanings. In popular discourse it's often synonymous with "untrue" or "fictional".

I was lucky to study one year under the literary critic Northrop Frye. In "The Great Code (or via: amazon.co.uk)", his analysis of the Bible, he fixes his remarks around two main language functions: myth and metaphor. Myth in its simplest definition just means narrative, an artificially constructed story.

But the more interesting meaning is the idea of myth as a story or narrative with cultural significance. This is the kind of thing that Joseph Campbell was into, presenting old stories and looking at their value as teaching aids or shared communal wisdom. He saw mythic characteristics in the Star Wars series, the reinforcement of certain cultural truths like leadership, heroism, sacrifice etc.

Campbell saw the King Arthur cycle as the last great Western mythology. The fusion of Christian and pagan Celtic elements was the climax of centuries of European cultural flux.

Jesus is a fusion of Jewish and pagan elements, one manifestation of the "east meets west" post-Alexander world. Maybe new myths arise from significant socio-political changes. The LXX was a symbol of the new age of Hellenism and a tentative move towards syncretism.

The mythology of the Augustan poets is an obvious example of sponsored propaganda. The truth of the theses stories was not in the past (Aeneas) but the contemporary supremacy of Rome.

What bacht says above.

The stories in the christian bible, the vedas of the Hindus, and Grimm's Fairy Tales are all good examples of myth. And, oh, yeah, the Illiad and the Odessey.

Mageth · 09-24-2010, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

None of the above. See dizzy's first post for what is essentially my take on "myth" in the broad sense.

The OP isn't asking for "the broad sense" though, but about its significance in the restricted sense dealing with biblical analysis, especially matters dealing with our being dogged by HJ/MJ blubberings.

I personally don't use the term of my own choosing.

spin

In that case, I'd go with "A narrative whose purpose is to portray religious ideas" from among the choices.

Ferryman to the Dead · 09-24-2010, 11:50 AM

There was a classic study of myths in a book called the Golden Bough by Sir James Frazer tried to demonstrate that every ancient society was deeply rooted in a ritual of sacrifice that involved a dying and reborn god whose rebirth was essential to the continuing existence of the society.

Kenneth C. Davis, Don't Know Much about Mythology, 1st Edition, ISBN 10:0-06-019460-X

spin · 09-24-2010, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

the real Nicholas of Smyrna

(Psst,... he's from Myra! It's near the town of Demre on the SW coast of Turkey.)

bacht · 09-24-2010, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferryman to the Dead

There was a classic study of myths in a book called the Golden Bough by Sir James Frazer tried to demonstrate that every ancient society was deeply rooted in a ritual of sacrifice that involved a dying and reborn god whose rebirth was essential to the continuing existence of the society.

Kenneth C. Davis, Don't Know Much about Mythology, 1st Edition, ISBN 10:0-06-019460-X

Right, Frazer was a big name in comparative mythology studies at the end of the 19th C.

spamandham · 09-24-2010, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

the real Nicholas of Smyrna

(Psst,... he's from Myra! It's near the town of Demre on the SW coast of Turkey.)

Meh, you get the idea.

bacht · 09-24-2010, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGL53

What bacht says above.

The stories in the christian bible, the vedas of the Hindus, and Grimm's Fairy Tales are all good examples of myth. And, oh, yeah, the Iliad and the Odyssey.

Thanks, but you shouldn't encourage me, I might exceed my "useful idiot" status...

In a modern vein, the Star Trek & Star Wars franchises reflect our interest in the new frontier of outer space. Technology is a big part of this.

The whole genre of science fiction is a more or less modern and connected with the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions. Thus a story like Frankenstein only makes sense in a world where biology has advanced to a modern level.

spin · 09-24-2010, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

The whole genre of science fiction is a more or less modern and connected with the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions. Thus a story like Frankenstein only makes sense in a world where biology has advanced to a modern level.

(Psst! You should read

Lucian of Samosata's

True History!)

View Poll Results: When you use the term in this forum, what is a myth?
A fictional representation purporting to be a past event.	8	24.24%
A story involving supernatural deeds.	3	9.09%
A narrative whose purpose is to portray religious ideas.	10	30.30%
A widely-held misconception.	0	0%
A female moth.	2	6.06%
Don't know.	0	0%
None of the above and I will explain.	10	30.30%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

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09-24-2010, 10:51 AM	#22
spamandham Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,525	I use the term 'myth' very loosely to simply refer to the fact that the gospels are not records of historical events or biographies of a historical person, nor should we be trying to extract The Real Jesus™ from them. Whether or not there was a historical person who we might in some sense refer to as the historical Jesus is an irrelevant and a needless complication, because he is not found in the texts we have, any more than the real Nicholas of Smyrna is found in "The Night Before Christmas". There may very well have been a Nicholas of Smyrna, but you won't find him in that poem, and he is not necessary to explain the history of the peirod that produced that poem.

09-24-2010, 11:50 AM	#25
Ferryman to the Dead Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Southern US Posts: 51	There was a classic study of myths in a book called the Golden Bough by Sir James Frazer tried to demonstrate that every ancient society was deeply rooted in a ritual of sacrifice that involved a dying and reborn god whose rebirth was essential to the continuing existence of the society. Kenneth C. Davis, Don't Know Much about Mythology, 1st Edition, ISBN 10:0-06-019460-X

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