Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 08-20-2009, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Come on guys, answer my question about Jews and their "evidence" for a real person named Jesus in their Hebrew name Joshua. If he wasn't a real person, why have the Jewish rabbi's cursed him for 2000 years?

Jesus is never called "Joshua" in the Talmud. It seems he's called the Hebrew-ized version of the Greek Iesou which would be Yesu.

Aww, give us a break! Yeshu is just one form of the Aramaic name.

Joshua was originally Yehoshua, which in later 2nd temple times was abbreviated to Yeshua (to weaken the theophoric, Yeho), eg when talking of Yeshua ben Jozadak (eg Ezr 3:2). Yeshu is just a slightly truncated version, given that the final vowel isn't written in Hebrew until the Massoretic text. You'll find this Yeshua (ben Jozadak) mentioned in B.Megilah 16b and B.Arachin 13b. It's also written the same way as Yeshu/Jesus.

Both Jesus and Yeshua ()b. Jozadak) are transcribed the same way in Greek, as is Joshua.

spin

jakejonesiv · 08-20-2009, 11:03 AM

The way the question is worded requires an agnostic answer; it is naive to assume that Jesus Christ was a living person. I gave it a 5.

If the question asked is "Was Jesus Christ as portayed in the gospels historical" a more definative answer can be given. The answer would be no, with a 7.

Best,
Jake Jones IV

jakejonesiv · 08-20-2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinnie

Quote:

The data is indeed conclusive that Jesus of the NT did not exist.

So the Jesus of the NT did not exist, what about the Jesus behind the NT?

Vinnie

Hi Vinnie,

It would depend on what you mean.

What if, for sake of argument, Joshua son of Nun was the Jesus behind the NT? Would that make Jesus historical or mythical?

Jake

funinspace · 08-20-2009, 11:43 AM

IMHO, there most likely was a historical person that was the mustard seed for the creation of this new sect. How much in the NT provides any factual information on the real (very human) Jesus...who knows.... (ergo #3) I also have read that there most likely was a real family behind Jason and the Golden Fleece tale as well.

aa5874 · 08-20-2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinnie

Quote:

The data is indeed conclusive that Jesus of the NT did not exist.

So the Jesus of the NT did not exist, what about the Jesus behind the NT?

Vinnie

Who wrote about Jesus behind the NT?

Yellum Notnef · 08-20-2009, 12:18 PM

I would have voted for #5 but decided to push it up a notch to #6 for dramatic effect.

steve_bnk · 08-20-2009, 04:00 PM

Did King Arthur exist? There are histoical posiibilites, but if you ask the average person I'd expext many would believe he existed and as in the movies

mountainman · 08-20-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay GW

He then says, "If he wasn't real how was Christianity born?" Which is a pretty good question

Bilbo Jesus Baggins and Christianity were
born in a fourth century scriptorium.

storytime · 08-20-2009, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

It is most basic that Jesus of the NT did not exist. There is no need to fabricate some other character and claimed that your fabricated Jesus existed.

The Church have described Jesus Christ just as Homer described Achilles.

Jesus Christ was a product of an out-of-context verse found in Isaiah 7.14.

If anyone wants to look for Jesus Christ or anyone else, the description of the person to be positively identified MUST be taken into account.

This is the fundamental description of Jesus Christ according to the Church.

Jesus was truly the offspring of the Holy Ghost of God, who transfigured, resurrected and ascended to heaven.

Paul claimed he and over 500 people saw Jesus in a resurrected state after he had died.

Now, if the Church gave false information about Jesus Christ then there is no other source of antiquity that have information that is credible about Jesus Christ.

The Jesus of the NT is just pure fiction, a total implausible entity.

Why do people fabricate another Jesus of their own liking, after not finding Jesus of the NT, and then look for him in the 1st century when their Jesus EXISTS only in their head?

I suppose it's because Jesus is the garment of covering whereof one size fits all. :huh: Jesus is an amazing character in the story, you know. But I'm more interested in why Jewish rabbi's thought him to be an actual person in their hatred of him. I read somewhere on a website that the Talmud says that Jesus was an illegitimate son of a Roman soldier and thus give creditability to a man named Jesus in denying his Jewishness? Why, if Jesus wasn't real, would those rabbi's have argued against him as being anything special like the son of God? Would they dare even mention him if they thought he was a mythical character? Why didn't the Jewish rabbi's write in their Talmud that Jesus was a mythical character invented by Gentile church fathers? But they didn't do that did they? So, the "evidence" from the Jewish rabbi's as they wrote in their Talmud, is that Jesus was a real person, not pure fiction. How do you counter their non-denial of Jesus the Jew?

spamandham · 08-20-2009, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

But I'm more interested in why Jewish rabbi's thought him to be an actual person in their hatred of him.

Jesus supposedly existed around 30CE. Rabbinic Judaism didn't begin until the mid 2nd century. There is 120 year time gap as a minimum.

Why wouldn't they assume he was a real person, even if he wasn't?

View Poll Results: Jesus Christ at some point was alive on the earth.
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2	6	4.88%
3	16	13.01%
4 Neutral Don't Know	19	15.45%
5	18	14.63%
6	20	16.26%
7 Strongly Disagree	28	22.76%
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08-20-2009, 11:03 AM	#32
jakejonesiv Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,060	The way the question is worded requires an agnostic answer; it is naive to assume that Jesus Christ was a living person. I gave it a 5. If the question asked is "Was Jesus Christ as portayed in the gospels historical" a more definative answer can be given. The answer would be no, with a 7. Best, Jake Jones IV

08-20-2009, 11:43 AM	#34
funinspace Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: North West usa Posts: 10,245	IMHO, there most likely was a historical person that was the mustard seed for the creation of this new sect. How much in the NT provides any factual information on the real (very human) Jesus...who knows.... (ergo #3) I also have read that there most likely was a real family behind Jason and the Golden Fleece tale as well.

08-20-2009, 12:18 PM	#36
Yellum Notnef Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Gone Posts: 4,676	I would have voted for #5 but decided to push it up a notch to #6 for dramatic effect.

08-20-2009, 04:00 PM	#37
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	Did King Arthur exist? There are histoical posiibilites, but if you ask the average person I'd expext many would believe he existed and as in the movies

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