Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 08-13-2009, 06:05 PM

Irenaeus in his bid to establish that there was orthodoxy in the Church actually showed the opposite.

The Church according to Irenaeus had in its possession the four gospels but ,as Irenaeus would show, these gospels actually had four version of Jesus and each version would be used by heretics.

The heretical Ebionites would use gMatthew.

The heretics Marcion and the Marcionites would use gLuke.

The heretics who followed Valentinus would use gJohn.

And other heretics would use gMark.

The four gospels were the spawning ground for heresies.
Against Heresies 3.11.7

Quote:

7. Such, then, are the first principles of the Gospel: that there
is one God, the Maker of this universe; He who was also announced by
the prophets, and who by Moses set forth the dispensation of the
law,--[principles] which proclaim the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and ignore any other God or Father except Him.

So firm is the ground upon which these Gospels rest, that the very heretics themselves bear witness to them, and, starting from these [documents], each one of them endeavours to establish his own peculiar doctrine.

For the Ebionites, who use Matthew's Gospel(3) only, are confuted out of this very same, making false suppositions with regard to the Lord.

But Marcion, mutilating that according to Luke, is proved to be a
blasphemer of the only existing God, from those [passages] which he
still retains.

Those, again, who separate Jesus from Christ, alleging
that Christ remained impassible, but that it was Jesus who suffered,
preferring the Gospel by Mark, if they read it with a love of truth,
may have their errors rectified.

Those, moreover, who follow Valentinus, making copious use of that according to John, to illustrate their conjunctions, shall be proved to be totally in error by means of this very Gospel, as I have shown in the first book.

Since, then, our opponents do bear testimony to us, and make use of
these [documents], our proof derived from them is firm and true.

A most absurd argument from Irenaeus. Orthodoxy produced heresies

But Irenaeus has inadvertently revealed what the Roman Church did. The Roman Church simply took control and possession of the existing versions of the Jesus stories and mutilated them in the 4th century.

PhilosopherJay · 08-14-2009, 05:45 AM

Hi Joe,

This is an interesting point that Eusebius changes "I" to "We" when quoting the writer of Against Heresies.

Note Book 3, chapter 1: We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us,

3.3: we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches

3.4.1: Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others

But Irenaeus also frequently uses "I"

3.4.2: Wherefore, as I have already stated, no other is named as God, or is called Lord, except Him who is God and Lord of all,

3.4.3: When, however, the Scripture terms them [gods] which are no gods, it does not, as I have already remarked,

3.16.2: That John knew the one and the same Word of God, and that He was the only begotten, and that He became incarnate for our salvation, Jesus Christ our Lord, I have sufficiently proved from the word of John himself

3.16.6: But inasmuch as all those before mentioned, although they certainly do with their tongue confess one Jesus Christ, make fools of themselves, thinking one thing and saying another;289 for their hypotheses vary, as I have already shown

3:18.7. Therefore, as I have already said, He caused man (human nature) to cleave to and to become, one with God.

In the last paragraph of Book 3, we get both "we" and "I".

Quote:

7. We do indeed pray that these men may not remain in the pit which they themselves have dug, but separate themselves from a Mother of this nature, and depart from Bythus, and stand away from the void, and relinquish the shadow; and that they, being converted to the Church of God, may be lawfully begotten, and that Christ may be formed in them, and that they may know the Framer and Maker of this universe, the only true God and Lord of all. We pray for these things on their behalf, loving them better than they seem to love themselves. For our love, inasmuch as it is true, is salutary to them, if they will but receive it. It may be compared to a severe remedy, extirpating the proud and sloughing flesh of a wound; for it puts an end to their pride and haughtiness. Wherefore it shall not weary us, to endeavour with all our might to stretch out the hand unto them. Over and above what has been already stated, I have deferred to the following book, to adduce the words of the Lord; if, by convincing some among them, through means of the very instruction of Christ, I may succeed in persuading them to abandon such error, and to cease from blaspheming their Creator, who is both God alone, and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

The use of "we" may indicate interpolations or it may just be Irenaeus' style.

I am not sure how to tell the difference.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Seeing chapter 3 of Against Heresies as an interpolation by Eusebius would make sense of this. I am wondering if anybody has any other explanation.
Warmly,
Philosopher Jay

JW:
Hi PJ. Keep in mind that Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons") is dating Jesus' demise to

Claudius (who just happened to be born in Lyons, yes, that "Lyons") which could be as late as 54. Clearly Irenaeus is trying to create a witness link between himself and Jesus. Polycarp is the most famous OCD Christian between Irenaeus and Jesus. Thus his selection.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm

Verses:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250104.htm

Quote:

[Eusebius quoting Irenaeus]
1. At this time, while Anicetus was at the head of the church of Rome, Irenæus relates that Polycarp, who was still alive, was at Rome, and that he had a conference with Anicetus on a question concerning the day of the paschal feast.

2. And the same writer gives another account of Polycarp which I feel constrained to add to that which has been already related in regard to him. The account is taken from the third book of Irenæus' work Against Heresies, and is as follows:

3. But Polycarp also was not only instructed by the apostles, and acquainted with many that had seen Christ, but was also appointed by apostles in Asia bishop of the church of Smyrna.

4. We too saw him in our early youth; for he lived a long time, and died, when a very old man, a glorious and most illustrious martyr's death, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, which the Church also hands down, and which alone are true.

the brave and truthful Skeptic should note that Eusebius quoting Irenaeus says "We too saw him in our early youth" while extant Irenaeus says I also saw in my early youth.

It's possible that Irenaeus originally wrote "we" per Eusebius with the possible meaning that it was actually members of Irenaeus' circle that supposedly knew Polycarp and not Irenaeus himself (the supposed Letter to Florinus though also uses "I" and provides more details). The use of "early youth" sounds like an apology for an unlikely stretch of witness over too long of a time period. Note the extremes in the link:

1) Jesus lives to old age.

2) "John" lives unusually long.

3) Polycarp lives unusually long.

4) Polycarp is seen in Irenaeus' unusually early youth.

Irenaeus otherwise explains that 50s is old age. Why the stretch? Why not a more normal generational link? All this from one who is the source of almost every important OCD historical first:

Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons"). 7 Firsts @ the XXX Olympiads. The Conversion of Revelation to Historical Witness

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

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