Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 06-19-2011, 08:04 AM

Quote:

A lot of very good points in that, especially the reflections of the myth of the resurrection. How meaningful would a belief in a resurrection be if it were merely a matter of explicit myth, fiction, allegory, or spirituality? The myth has power almost purely because it is an extraordinary event in the context of earthly experiences, and it has little or no persuasive power without the belief in Jesus as an earthly human figure.

I can agree. That's why the human figure was eventually invented.

Vorkosigan

ApostateAbe · 06-19-2011, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Quote:

A lot of very good points in that, especially the reflections of the myth of the resurrection. How meaningful would a belief in a resurrection be if it were merely a matter of explicit myth, fiction, allegory, or spirituality? The myth has power almost purely because it is an extraordinary event in the context of earthly experiences, and it has little or no persuasive power without the belief in Jesus as an earthly human figure.

I can agree. That's why the human figure was eventually invented.

Vorkosigan

That would make some sense, at least. Do you know if Arthur Drews or the other classical mythicists had thought of that?

Vorkosigan · 06-19-2011, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

I can agree. That's why the human figure was eventually invented.

Vorkosigan

That would make some sense, at least. Do you know if Arthur Drews or the other classical mythicists had thought of that?

I don't know if Drews had a detailed overall theory of the origin of Christianity. It might make for an interesting blog entry.....

Vorkosigan · 06-19-2011, 08:18 AM

The online reader has The Christ Myth complete in English translation. The reader is a kickass piece of technology.

http://www.archive.org/stream/christ...ge/n9/mode/2up

aa5874 · 06-19-2011, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Quote:

A lot of very good points in that, especially the reflections of the myth of the resurrection. How meaningful would a belief in a resurrection be if it were merely a matter of explicit myth, fiction, allegory, or spirituality? The myth has power almost purely because it is an extraordinary event in the context of earthly experiences, and it has little or no persuasive power without the belief in Jesus as an earthly human figure.

I can agree. That's why the human figure was eventually invented.

Vorkosigan

A human figure that could NOT resurrect was invented for the resurrection!!!

That makes no sense.

Again, "Paul" claimed he was AWARE of the Jesus story and that there was written sources that stated Jesus DIED, was Buried and was RAISED from the dead on the third day..

1Co 15:3 -

Quote:

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,

And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures...

The Jesus story was ALREADY WRITTEN based on "Paul".

And further, the Jesus of the Gospels is NOT a human figure, it was GOD INCARNATE. It was the Child of a HOLY GHOST and a Virgin, it was of the seed of God.

Inclusion of the Gospels in the NT Canon DISPELS ANY DOUBT that Jesus was human.

A human Jesus is a BLASPHEMER and a False prophet with no ability to REMIT the sins of mankind.

Jesus of the Gospels MUST BE GOD INCARNATE and MUST be BORN of the SPIRIT of God to REMIT the Sins of Mankind.

"Paul" is AFTER the Jesus story was written and it is written in the very NT.

ApostateAbe · 06-19-2011, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

The online reader has The Christ Myth complete in English translation. The reader is a kickass piece of technology.

http://www.archive.org/stream/christ...ge/n9/mode/2up

Thanks, I appreciate that.

Chili · 06-19-2011, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

......A lot of very good points in that, especially the reflections of the myth of the resurrection. How meaningful would a belief in a resurrection be if it were merely a matter of explicit myth, fiction, allegory, or spirituality? The myth has power almost purely because it is an extraordinary event in the context of earthly experiences, and it has little or no persuasive power without the belief in Jesus as an earthly human figure.

Actually the argument is EXTREMELY WEAK. A Human Jesus is a COMPLETE DISASTER.

We have the Gospels stories and can see MASSIVE holes in "The Gospel Evidence For Jesus' Existence,".

First of all the passage you quote is IMAGINATION based.

Let us go to gMark.

1. Jesus DEMANDED that the disciples TELL NO MAN that he was Christ.

2. The disciples had ABANDONED Jesus when he was arrested

3. Peter had DENIED that he EVER knew or was associated with Jesus.

4. Jesus was Crucified after being condemned to be guilty of death for Blasphemy.

5. Jesus is DEAD.

6. Three days later the BODY of Jesus had vanished.

7. The visitors FLED from the tomb TREMBLING with fear.

It is ABSOLUTELY clear from gMark that if Jesus was human then he was a COMPLETE disaster.

The human Jesus DESTROYED the FAITH of the supposed disciples. They all FLED and ABANDONED the man and were DUMB-STRUCK with FEAR.

Mr 14:50 -

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And they all forsook him, and fled.

Mark 14

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71 But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.

Mr 16:8 -

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And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre, for they trembled and were amazed,neither said they any thing to any man, for they were afraid.

If Jesus was human then he was a TOTAL FAILURE. He DIED in DISGRACE, He was CURSED, SPAT upon, Beaten and then brutally Crucified while his disciples ALL ABANDONED him and one DENIED even knowing him.

There are MASSIVE Holes in the HJ theory.

We have the stories and we will EXPOSE ALL the HOLES.

HJ makes NO sense whatsoever.

When did PETER who denied he ever knew Jesus begin to tell people Jesus was a Messiah?

After the MAN was DEAD?

Don't make me laugh!!!!

There is NOTHING as a POSTHUMOUS MESSIAH.

The JEWS do not look for their MESSIAH among the dead.

HJ makes NO sense whatsoever.

A human Jesus is a DISASTER within 72 HOURS Jesus was a FALSE prophet. He claimed he would resurrect on the third day.

What a BIG LIE. What a FALSE prophet

All very true but since Redemption after the fall of man is a internal event pertaining to the transformation now from human to man, it must enter the mind of man via the human condition (via the TOK into the TOL, from Gen.3:6) where it becomes the antagonist to later in life deliver the pearl of great worth wherein liberty is found, and so to enter the mind of man it must show a likeness to humans first that intuitly can be ours as perceived with the eye of our soul where it is pre-eminent to us, and that is what religion is supposed to be all about.

IOW, it has nothing to do with bible thumping which itself becomes the antagonist without end since there is no end to be found in the TOK or in its renditions since flesh is flesh is flesh never to be raised into the essence of its own existence, or as Aristotle put it: origination is always intuit, simply put, period.

Toto · 06-19-2011, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

.... It would make very little sense for Paul's idea of "resurrection" to be something that happens in the spirit world or explicit-myth world, since it doesn't have nearly the same level of religious motivational power anywhere but on Earth among human beings, where it clearly never happens as far as anyone has seen.

I don't know exactly what he means by "resurrection experiences." He could mean simply the reputed resurrection experiences, as in the initial lies or mistake and the subsequent myth, such as Paul's accounting of the 500 witnesses, or he could mean actual observations of the resurrected Jesus, in which case of course he and I would part ways, but that would be unlikely, since Case also writes, "The miraculous resurrection of Jesus is undoubtedly a tenet of the first Christians' faith, but to go back of that faith and establish by critical tests the reliability of any corresponding objective fact is held to be no longer possible."

This is where Case is coming from: there was an older view of Christian history, now discredited, that the only thing that could explain the impetus for Christianity was the power that the "resurrection experience" had on the original disciples, which propelled them to preach the gospel and get themselves martyred.

Case was a liberal theologian, a Protestant Rationalist who did not believe in the supernatural parts of the Bible, but he still believed in Christian exceptionalism. He believed that something had happened to the original disciples, that they believed that Jesus was resurrected, Hallelujah!

You find this argument laid out in full force by JP Holding in his essay "The Impossible Faith: Or, How Not to Start an Ancient Religion," although Holding argues that Christianity was so improbable it required a supernatural element. Holding was rebutted point by point in Richard Carrier's Was Christianity Too Improbable to be False?, now available as a book (or via: amazon.co.uk).

Toto · 06-19-2011, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Excuse me? We think theological presuppositions are irrelevant to historical inquiry, and therefore we hate theology?

The more of your stuff I read, Abe, the harder it gets for me to distinguish you from the average evangelical apologist.

I was quoting Case, who was no Christian apologist. The sociological situation was the same then as it is today--when steeped in the us-vs.-them trenches of Jesus-minimalism, then reasonable arguments that you once heard from apologists will always seem like bogus nonsense when it comes from anywhere else. Case was alluding to that mentality in that quote.

But Case was clearly a Christian apologist and a theologian, and the sociological situation was a bit different. There was a more academically respectable mythicist movement at the time.

ApostateAbe · 06-19-2011, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

.... It would make very little sense for Paul's idea of "resurrection" to be something that happens in the spirit world or explicit-myth world, since it doesn't have nearly the same level of religious motivational power anywhere but on Earth among human beings, where it clearly never happens as far as anyone has seen.

I don't know exactly what he means by "resurrection experiences." He could mean simply the reputed resurrection experiences, as in the initial lies or mistake and the subsequent myth, such as Paul's accounting of the 500 witnesses, or he could mean actual observations of the resurrected Jesus, in which case of course he and I would part ways, but that would be unlikely, since Case also writes, "The miraculous resurrection of Jesus is undoubtedly a tenet of the first Christians' faith, but to go back of that faith and establish by critical tests the reliability of any corresponding objective fact is held to be no longer possible."

This is where Case is coming from: there was an older view of Christian history, now discredited, that the only thing that could explain the impetus for Christianity was the power that the "resurrection experience" had on the original disciples, which propelled them to preach the gospel and get themselves martyred.

Case was a liberal theologian, a Protestant Rationalist who did not believe in the supernatural parts of the Bible, but he still believed in Christian exceptionalism. He believed that something had happened to the original disciples, that they believed that Jesus was resurrected, Hallelujah!

You find this argument laid out in full force by JP Holding in his essay "The Impossible Faith: Or, How Not to Start an Ancient Religion," although Holding argues that Christianity was so improbable it required a supernatural element. Holding was rebutted point by point in Richard Carrier's Was Christianity Too Improbable to be False?, now available as a book (or via: amazon.co.uk).

Thanks, Toto, I appreciate it.

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06-19-2011, 08:18 AM	#24
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	The online reader has The Christ Myth complete in English translation. The reader is a kickass piece of technology. http://www.archive.org/stream/christ...ge/n9/mode/2up

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