Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 03-24-2009, 03:42 PM

muter mutter archaeology mutter.

aa5874 · 03-24-2009, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

It is inexplicable that three writers of antiquity from Egypt, Judaea, and Rome would invent the Essenes while the supposed group were located as they were writing.

Dear aa5874,

It is not "inexplicable" since quite clearly the scrolls and codices by which these three authors were being preserved in the fourth century were all in the possession of Eusebius and his imperial scriptoria.

I told you it was inexplicable. Look what you wrote next.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

We need to rule out the possibility that Josephus may be a Eusebian mouthpiece.

I am not sure how one might go about this.

Any ideas?

It is inexplicable that Eusebius would interpolate the writings of Josephus in three different writings with information about the Essenes when there are no direct references to Essenes in the NT and when the Essenes would have been mentioned by Philo and Pliny and in circulation almost 300 years before Eusebius.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Did Josephus write "[Jesus] was the Christ!"? Not too many people are arguing that the TF is totally genuine. Josephus did not write this. Eusebius wrote this into Josephus. What else did Eusebius add to Josephus?

It is believed that Josephus did not write the TF based on many factors, but whoever wrote the TF may have forged it for the simple reason that the very Philo, Josephus and Pliny, ( those who wrote about the Essenes), did not write anything about Jesus.

maryhelena · 03-25-2009, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Why did Josephus write that "[Jesus] was the Christ!"?

Answer that question first please maryhelena and aa5874 and anyone else for that matter. And in answering that question please be aware of its consequences.

Did Josephus write "[Jesus] was the Christ!"? Not too many people are arguing that the TF is totally genuine. Josephus did not write this. Eusebius wrote this into Josephus. What else did Eusebius add to Josephus?

Eusebius was commissioned to write polemic to support Constantine's destruction of the temples of the therapeutae of Asclepius. Was there anything good about the therapeutae at all? Well, they had this ancient splinter group you see who were called Essenes and who were Jewish therapeutae, but who did not recognise (in a very fourth century christian way) the equality of male and female, and so forth, and so on ....

Best wishes,

Pete

Hi, Pete

I'm following Neil Godfrey on his blog with regard to the issue of Josephus and the 'Jesus' problems.......so will wait a while to see what the outcome of his thinking is going to be...

http://vridar.wordpress.com/2009/03/...in-the-nest-1/

Regards
maryhelena

kcdad · 03-25-2009, 05:41 AM

Just ask the question why would anyone want to dismiss the Essenes? What threat are they?

What is it about a devout communist community that worships God that makes people crazy?

Toto · 03-25-2009, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Just ask the question why would anyone want to dismiss the Essenes? What threat are they?

What is it about a devout communist community that worships God that makes people crazy?

Why do you think this is ideology and not a matter of following the evidence?

We have a lot of experience with utopian/communist groups, and the Essenes as described don't seem to fit.

kcdad · 03-25-2009, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Just ask the question why would anyone want to dismiss the Essenes? What threat are they?

What is it about a devout communist community that worships God that makes people crazy?

Why do you think this is ideology and not a matter of following the evidence?

We have a lot of experience with utopian/communist groups, and the Essenes as described don't seem to fit.

Of course it is about ideology. That these people existed in not debatable. All that matters is which ideological label you slap on them. I am not sure anyone would describe the Essenes as utopian. They were escapists. Not unlike the Davidian Branch, or other cults that have attempted to separate themselves from the wicked influences of civilization.

Why would you suggest (other than the term didn't exist) that they were not communist (communal) in nature?

Toto · 03-25-2009, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

.... That these people existed in not debatable. ...

A tenured credentialed scholare is willing to debate the issue. That's what this thread is about.

What do we actually know? That three not quite reliable sources describe a group called Essenes? That there was a settlement at Qumran (that might have been a monastery or might have been a pottery factory) and some people lived there?

aa5874 · 03-25-2009, 11:34 AM

Now, if as written that the Esennes sold their properties, some of them were living perhaps in caves, or in tents or with those who had not sold their properties, yet, in temporary dwellings or squatted. This would imply that the Essenes were perhaps scattered all over the region and were probably constantly re-located depending on their dwelling place, the time of the year and weather conditions.

If the Essenes did not own property then it would be difficult perhaps to find any permanent place of abode for the Essenes.

kcdad · 03-25-2009, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

.... That these people existed in not debatable. ...

A tenured credentialed scholare is willing to debate the issue. That's what this thread is about.

What do we actually know? That three not quite reliable sources describe a group called Essenes? That there was a settlement at Qumran (that might have been a monastery or might have been a pottery factory) and some people lived there?

They are going to debate whether or not people lived in those caves? THAT ought to be interesting.. or do you mean they are going to debate what we should call those people?

BTW, "tenured" lowers a person in my esteem.That doesn't impress me at all.

Clivedurdle · 03-25-2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Vegetarian Essenes? Volume 52 Number 3, May/June 1999 by Spencer P.M. Harrington Twenty-eight spartan dwellings on the edge of the Ein Gedi oasis in southern Israel may have been the home of a community of Essenes, the Jewish sect thought by some to have collected the Dead Sea Scrolls. While no inscriptions have been found positively linking the site to the group, its proximity to the village of Ein Gedi a mile away is grounds for assuming that its inhabitants belonged to the same community, says Yitzhar Hirschfeld of Hebrew University, the site's excavator. Descriptions of the Essenes by ancient authors such as Pliny the Elder "fit the character of the site," he says. Another clue is the presence of a mikveh, or Jewish ritual bath.
The Essenes are thought to have flourished between the second century B.C. and the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70. Ancient sources describe them as a tightly knit group of men, possibly celibate, who practiced communal ownership of property. "The people who lived here worked the fields of the oasis," says Hirschfeld, who suspects that the site was a permanent, rather than seasonal, settlement. The dwellings were built for one person only and measure six by nine feet. They appear to have been occupied twice, in the first and early second centuries A.D., and between the fourth and sixth centuries. Three larger buildings possibly had a communal use; one, likely a kitchen, had three stoves and a thick layer of ash on the floor.
While the site yielded a fairly rich collection of pottery vessels, glass sherds, and seven coins from the early Roman and Byzantine eras, it is most remarkable for its lack of animal bones. "Although we worked carefully, sifting everything, we didn't find any," says Hirschfeld, adding that the settlers might have been vegetarian. Although Josephus noted that the dietary restrictions of the Essenes were stringent, the nearby village appears not to have been bound by vegetarianism. "We've found 4,000 animal bones in the village of Ein Gedi," he notes. Judaism has historically advocated vegetarianism only occasionally for ascetic reasons or during periods of mourning. Excavations will continue in the winter of 2000.

http://www.archaeology.org/9905/newsbriefs/vege.html

Muter mutter archaeology mutter.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-24-2009, 03:42 PM	#91
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	muter mutter archaeology mutter.

03-25-2009, 05:41 AM	#94
kcdad Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: illinois Posts: 688	Just ask the question why would anyone want to dismiss the Essenes? What threat are they? What is it about a devout communist community that worships God that makes people crazy?

03-25-2009, 11:34 AM	#98
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	Now, if as written that the Esennes sold their properties, some of them were living perhaps in caves, or in tents or with those who had not sold their properties, yet, in temporary dwellings or squatted. This would imply that the Essenes were perhaps scattered all over the region and were probably constantly re-located depending on their dwelling place, the time of the year and weather conditions. If the Essenes did not own property then it would be difficult perhaps to find any permanent place of abode for the Essenes.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.