Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sotto voce · 04-27-2012, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selsaral

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Selsaral:

It really won't do for you to begin by defining the Gospels as mythological texts. That should be your conclusion, not your premise.

Wrong. There is no reason to assume that there is some historical basis for any given story. That's not how historians work in any other field.

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My question is what reason do we have to doubt that among the people living in Palestine in the first century was a guy named Jesus who preached, had followers and got crucified?

Steve

All you are doing here is shifting the burden of proof to the other side.

We have no reason to doubt that there was some guy named Jesus who preached and had followers. But we have no credible evidence for him either.

Why is it that most of the world's population believes that he existed?

That sounds a lot like the 'appeal to belief' fallacy.

I doesn't. It's a sure bet that someone will post that it does, though.

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It also seems to be ignoring the fact that humans are known myth makers and love things like astrology, scientology, etc.

How much of the world's population takes either seriously?

Selsaral · 04-27-2012, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selsaral

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Selsaral:

It really won't do for you to begin by defining the Gospels as mythological texts. That should be your conclusion, not your premise.

Wrong. There is no reason to assume that there is some historical basis for any given story. That's not how historians work in any other field.

Quote:

My question is what reason do we have to doubt that among the people living in Palestine in the first century was a guy named Jesus who preached, had followers and got crucified?

Steve

All you are doing here is shifting the burden of proof to the other side.

We have no reason to doubt that there was some guy named Jesus who preached and had followers. But we have no credible evidence for him either.

Why is it that most of the world's population believes that he existed?

That sounds a lot like the 'appeal to belief' fallacy.

I doesn't. It's a sure bet that someone will post that it does, though.

Well, I guess you could continue to assume my stupidity and refuse to actually explain what you meant and instead condescend.

Quote:

It also seems to be ignoring the fact that humans are known myth makers and love things like astrology, scientology, etc.

Quote:

How much of the world's population takes either seriously?

That also sounds a lot like the 'appeal to belief' fallacy. Please don't explain yourself and instead condescend, however.

sotto voce · 04-27-2012, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selsaral

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selsaral

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Selsaral:

It really won't do for you to begin by defining the Gospels as mythological texts. That should be your conclusion, not your premise.

Wrong. There is no reason to assume that there is some historical basis for any given story. That's not how historians work in any other field.

Quote:

My question is what reason do we have to doubt that among the people living in Palestine in the first century was a guy named Jesus who preached, had followers and got crucified?

Steve

All you are doing here is shifting the burden of proof to the other side.

We have no reason to doubt that there was some guy named Jesus who preached and had followers. But we have no credible evidence for him either.

Why is it that most of the world's population believes that he existed?

That sounds a lot like the 'appeal to belief' fallacy.

I doesn't. It's a sure bet that someone will post that it does, though.

Well, I guess you could continue to assume my stupidity and refuse to actually explain what you meant and instead condescend.

Quote:

It also seems to be ignoring the fact that humans are known myth makers and love things like astrology, scientology, etc.

Quote:

How much of the world's population takes either seriously?

That also sounds a lot like the 'appeal to belief' fallacy. Please don't explain yourself and instead condescend, however.

:wave:

Selsaral · 04-27-2012, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selsaral

Well, I guess you could continue to assume my stupidity and refuse to actually explain what you meant and instead condescend.

That also sounds a lot like the 'appeal to belief' fallacy. Please don't explain yourself and instead condescend, however.

:wave:

Usually I see this kind of thing on other internet forums. Is UMAD? next?

sotto voce · 04-27-2012, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selsaral

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selsaral

Well, I guess you could continue to assume my stupidity and refuse to actually explain what you meant and instead condescend.

That also sounds a lot like the 'appeal to belief' fallacy. Please don't explain yourself and instead condescend, however.

:wave:

Usually I see this kind of thing on other internet forums.

I'm sure you do.

Selsaral · 04-27-2012, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selsaral

Usually I see this kind of thing on other internet forums.

I'm sure you do.

Huh.

Vorkosigan · 04-27-2012, 07:33 AM

Selsaral, replying to sot is a total waste of time and pixels. Just put him on ignore.

Vorkosigan

sotto voce · 04-27-2012, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Selsaral, replying to sot is a total waste of time and pixels. Just put him on ignore.

Vorkosigan

So is there no explanation for the fact that people from Anchorage to Tierra del Fuego, from Tromso to Cape Town, from Provideniya to Dunedin, believe that Jesus existed, despite there being no evidence? And this question is to be ignored?

Now that's what one might call a miracle.

No Robots · 04-27-2012, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

What exactly should we do, NR? What textual/historical problem calls for Hillel-mythicism?

Just apply to Hillel whatever method you use for Christ. Show that your method is generalizable, and not just special pleading to validate your pre-conceptions.

Vorkosigan · 04-27-2012, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

What exactly should we do, NR? What textual/historical problem calls for Hillel-mythicism?

Just apply to Hillel whatever method you use for Christ. Show that your method is generalizable, and not just special pleading to validate your pre-conceptions.

NR, you do realize that mythicism is as much a project of Christians as it is of atheists? And that it is based on analysis of the texts that goes back deep into the 19th century?

Since the two bodies of literature and the social and religious contexts for Hillel and Jesus are so completely different what would the grounds for generalization of one to the other be? There is some limited basis for use of widely accepted literary techiques and understandings used in understanding any text -- for example, when the Mishnah represents Hillel in terms of 120 year life with 40 year periods, that can be safely dismissed as literary creation.

In any case the discussion is pointless until you offer some grounds for determining when generalization has taken place (otherwise I confidently predict that you will shift the goalposts) and why you think it is so important. After all, every field has its own methodologies and justificatory strategies. Even if historicist or mythicist Jesus studies had a set of totally unique methodologies it would not invalidate them, per se.

Vorkosigan

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04-27-2012, 07:33 AM	#37
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Selsaral, replying to sot is a total waste of time and pixels. Just put him on ignore. Vorkosigan

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