Apologist

Matthew 16:18
Luke 10:16
John 20: 21-22
John 21: 15
John 6. Bread of life discourse.
Luke 22:31

Toto

split from here

Toto

Consider that every miracle that has been examined has been debunked.

Hey, you're right - I don't believe in Zeus or Athena or Achilles. . .

And I don't believe that Caesar was a god either!

Actually, I don't "believe" in any historical fact they way that you believe in your version of Jesus. I accept that there is evidence that some historical events happened, or something like them, but I don't consider history a firm basis for morality.

Apologist

Really? So Fatima has been debunked?

pharoah

Yes, common sense debunks that. No one else in Portugal or on earth saw this Disco Sun. If the Virgin wanted to work an impressive, helpful miracle then she should have instantly ended the Great War or prevented the Flu Pandemic that broke out world-wide the very next year.

Apologist

Absense of evidence fallacy.

pharoah

Not true at all. 2 billion-plus people saw the sun that day in a normal way, or else we would have substantiation for this story outside of Fatima. Those 2 billion-plus people are all the evidence that I need. The RCC claims that 70,000 people in Fatima saw the sun dancing. We don't even have eyewitness reports from the vast majority of the 70,000 so-called witnesses. So who am I going to believe, 2 billion eyewitnesses who saw nothing abnormal or 70,000 reputed eyewitnesses with no evidence? :huh:

Unless you want to claim that the good people in Fatima were living under a different sun that day.

Apologist

It was 1917, wasn't it? Did the vast majority even know how to read and write?

I didn't say that. All I am saying is that 70,000 people saw something supernatural that day, and it just so happened to accompany the appearance of Our Lady.

Anat

My grandmothers were alive in 1917, knew how to read and write, and did not notice the sun doing anything unusual that day.

You don't have the independent testimonies of 70,000 people, merely a claim that 70,000 people saw something.

Amaleq13

Fabricated fallacy fallacy.

Did you mean "Argument from Silence"? That is not always a fallacy and this is an excellent example. Reliance upon the silence as evidence depends on how probable non-silence would be. Given a claim that the sun danced around the sky, it is extremely probable to the point of certainty that such an event would result in reports around the globe. An absence of such confirming evidence is conclusively damning to any such claim. IOW, the sun certainly did not dance that day except in the minds of those present.