Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John A. Broussard · 11-07-2005, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Interestingly, the animal used by Satan was then punished (even though it was innocent) providing a vivid example of that which waits for those people who are similarly used by Satan (even though it could be argued that they are innocent also).

Yes, that "could be argued," but why bother? The Christian god reserves the right to punish innocent people as well as innocent serpents.

If the Christian god wants to turn virgin girls over to the Israelite warriors for later rape at leisure, that's just the way the Christian god works.

The big mistake non-Christians make in discussing the Christian god (as you have pointed out many times) is to think of that god as being bound by any moral code.

The Christian god has done, is doing and will do as it pleases.

John A. Broussard · 11-07-2005, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

Actually, the prose intro of Job is supposedly much younger than the poetical heart. How much younger, though, then Genesis I cannot tell.

Hasn't it been argued that the Book of Job is almost totally alien to the rest of the OT?

The different role of Satan in those pages sure seems to be evidence to that effect.

John A. Broussard · 11-07-2005, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

In Genesis, Satan uses the serpent (otherwise, how could an animal talk) as the means to deceive Eve.

This rather puzzles me.

Why is one of these events less likely than the other?

A serpent talking?

A serpent who Satan talks through?

rhutchin · 11-07-2005, 03:23 PM

Quote:

rhutchin
2 Corinth 4:4 ...[Satan] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

post tenebras lux
The verse actually says 'god of this world' rather than directly stating it is Satan. Where in the bible does it explicitly state that 'the god of this world' is Satan?

The reference to those who are blinded seems clearly to be unbelievers. There are two choices for the “god of this world.�? They are Satan and God (Christ).

Satan is called the “prince of this world�? in the following--

John 14
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

John 16
11 …because the prince of this world is judged.

John 12
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Satan claimed to have power over the world when he tempted Christ that he could give to whom he wanted--

Luke 4
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Satan is also said to have free reign over people and to desire them—

1 Peter 5
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Luke 22
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

There are verses that give the ultimate control over people to God (because He is sovereign) but this merely allows God to let Satan operate freely to accomplish His purposes. Certainly, Satan would have a desire to blind people in order to see them destroyed and could only accomplished this if allowed by God.

Quote:

rhutchin
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

post tenebras lux
By the way, Rhutchin, are Paul's letters (to the Corinthians and others) 'the word of [G]od'?

Yes. This seems to have been the opinion of Peter also.

2 Peter 3
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

rhutchin · 11-07-2005, 03:28 PM

Quote:

rhutchin
In Genesis, Satan uses the serpent (otherwise, how could an animal talk) as the means to deceive Eve.

John A. Broussard
This rather puzzles me.

Why is one of these events less likely than the other?

A serpent talking?

A serpent who Satan talks through?

No serpent observable today has the power to reason and talk in a human language.

Satan has considerable power as displayed in Job. That power could easily include the ability to take an animal and make it talk (maybe he is a ventriloquist).

rhutchin · 11-07-2005, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

...

The Christian god has done, is doing and will do as [He] pleases.

I agree.

rhutchin · 11-07-2005, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Vestal

Furthermore, Genesis helpfully explains that the serpent was the mastermind of the whole thing, because "the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made."

This need not imply that the serpent was the mastermind but only that the serpent was a very suitable animal for Satan (the true mastermind) to use.

rhutchin · 11-07-2005, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJD

You know, one even more simple reason that ha-satan is not the serpent is this: he is nowhere said to be the serpent in Eden. Yes, he is identified with it later on ("that serpent of old"), but we must not think that the "adversary" literally possessed a snake in the garden. Saint Paul, and others like him to be sure, understood what we now call the "mythical" elements of the creation narrative.

Incidentally, FFT, your reasons for disputing something that isn't even a viable interpretation (just because it's popular certainly doesn't make it viable), are not really convincing. All someone would have to say is that God's judgment in Eden was aimed at the serpent qua serpent, not satan.

If we take the story to encompass events that were observed and observable by Adam who then recorded that which he saw, then we get that which we read. Pul's later referral to those events and casting them in a different light would then be derived from that which Christ revealed to him. While Satan does not seemed to have been judged directly in Eden, it does seem that his fate was sealed which effectively was judgment.

rhutchin · 11-07-2005, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

In Genesis, there is just the Serpent, who is punished for being "guilty". Note that all the descendants of the Serpent are punished too: this is "God's justice".

As are all the descendants of Adam/Eve.

Chris Weimer · 11-07-2005, 03:40 PM

Quite true. Could never understand the reasoning of punishing all the offspring because of the guilt of the parents, but hey, it must have made sense to someone to come up with that myth.

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11-07-2005, 03:40 PM	#20
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Quite true. Could never understand the reasoning of punishing all the offspring because of the guilt of the parents, but hey, it must have made sense to someone to come up with that myth.

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