Queen of Swords

Sure, why shouldn't we? Is there some law in your universe which says that if your god chooses to play the masochist, everyone else should deserve to be tortured as well?

And it was entirely his choice. He could have chosen to simply forgive people and be done with it, but he apparently wanted his own blood (and lots of it) to be shed as well. I fully agree that I fall short of this great pain fetish, which is reason enough for me not to wish to have pain inflicted on me even if you and your god agree that I deserve it.

Draconis

Since Jesus is in some part divine (depending on which heresy you prefer) then why can't he "save" without having the crap whipped out of him? Or if he can't do that, why can't his father do it instead?

spamandham

...because the people who concocted this story needed to figure out how to fold in cross symbolism while whitewashing away the astrotheological basis of it.

gracebkr

God died for us. What is death? Real death. It is what you all expect when you die. Nothing, non existence. This is the Hell I think the Bible refers to. The second death. First we die physically and if we have no faith in him he removes us from existence. Not only if we have no faith, but if we completely and utterly ignore his word. When Jesus died, being the Son of God, God in the Flesh, He died for us. In the Old Testament, you went to hell. God does not want us sinners to go to hell. So He dies for us. When Jesus was on the cross he said "Father why have you forsaken me". He was separated, true death. The death the Bible describes as hell, without God. No God is hell. When Jesus did this, since God is Infinite, He only had to do it once for all of us to be saved. That's why He had to die for us.

Ygg, this is for you

http://www.thelostbooks.com/

It has the Lost Books of the Bible. I read once that Jesus went to Hell and brought the sinner's to heaven in one of these, I can't remember which one, but I seem to recall, which I may be mistaken, it was the Book of Mary. Like I said, I could be wrong, but I hope you enjoy this anyways.

QOS, I do understand your pain of the loss of your mother. My father died slowly and when I knew him, he was so sick with cancer in his brain, that he couldn't speak or walk. I have barely any memories of him except when I said goodbye and some seconds of other things. You have memories, be happy for that. You heard your mother speak, did you not? I would give anything to have that time with my father. I had nothing, just sad memories when I think back. Then I didn't really know. I do have a brother, well 3 but one like you. He thinks like you. What merciful God would do this to him, our father? Then one of my other brother's is gone. Missing for a year now. Which is also evidence of no God to my one other brother. I think my father did not want to leave. I don't think he wanted to die or leave us which is why I ache when I think of how hard that must have been being a mother now. I would not want to leave my kids. I would not. I would pray as well for my life, plead for it. Going to California is the song, thanks for who ever corrected me. It says in that song it is not as hard as it seems. I always think how hard it must have for him. Then I hear that song and when it says that, makes me feel bad. I do think he is with me though. I don't know why you are so angry with me though. I feel what you feel. Are you angry because I have accepted it and you cannot, or because you think I want you to believe what I believe. I don't. I don't care what you believe.

spamandham

I'd have prefered that he lived for us.

OldYgg

Thanks, gracebkr, for the source material. This might be part of what my father-in-law (who is religious) says is the apocrypha? These are items that were not included in the bible for whatever reason. Some because of theological inconsistencies, some because it contradicted other text, some because I think they just weren't voted in.

Basically, I'll take your word for it that content exists in there (although I will try to take the time to read through it and find the actual reference among other things), but your average bible-belt citizen will probably not use this as a reference. To use averages as much as possible, the average bible-belt citizen isn't as bible literate as many of the atheists on this board and probably wouldn't extend their knowledge to the apocrypha.

If we do accept that Jesus did this once before, it is possible that he could do it again if he comes back. So, the point I'm trying to make is that this has two affects 1) Sinning is not necessarily an unrecoverable error and 2) Resources outside of the bible have authority in the all important business of what you need to do to get to heaven.

Thanks again though. I appreciate your efforts to provide material when questioned on a point.

Old Ygg

OldYgg

Yes, especially if he had a lifetime the length of time of the early members of Earth, extending for a thousand years or possibly even more.

He could have guided us through our infancy as a species and we could mature. The disturbed state we are in now with all these battling factions that do not hold humanity and the future of humanity as the primary goal threaten the existence of humanity.

That is a poor outcome at best. And if jesus existed and would have a long lifetime (such that the son of god should live at least as long as Adam, if not Methuselah) this could have all been prevented.

Old Ygg

spamandham

The apocrypha are the books that Catholics consider part of the Bible, but Protestants don't. This particular story is not in those books, but is instead part of extra-Biblical tradition maintained by Muslims. The Qu'ran records an aproximation of what 7th century Christians believed.

gracebkr

I am a Christian, but not a Bible belt or whatever you call it. I believe. That's all. Do I believe the Bible in it's entirety *literally*, no. I do believe Jesus was Christ. Do I believe the whole world flooded? No. Do I believe what seemed as the whole world flooded, yes. See what I mean? I don't care what the source is, as long as it gets me the Truth. I want to know what God wants, thinks etc. Not what any specific religion thinks. I want the knowledge to know more about who I think is God. If the story is Jesus went to hell and brought up the sinners, I want to know that. If Jesus said it, did it, I want to know. I think if you search on that page on the search engine there, "Jesus hell" and it will pop up in one of the selections.

gracebkr

Sinning is not a surefire way to hell. I think some think that and preach that, but that is not fact. I don't think the man who raped the kid and buried her alive has a chance, but I am not God, so who knows? But if Jesus died for OUR sins, that means we are cleansed of our sins. We can sin which we all will and do and still have our place in heaven. I don't think pure evil gets through and like I said before, I don't think hell is fiery and burning, I think it is no longer in existence. It says in the Bible the second* death will be hell. I think first death is our physical, second our spiritual. Just my opinion though on the writings.