Freethought & Rationalism Archive

zhugin · 06-01-2009, 02:06 PM

In the case of Carrier and Carotta I merely forwarded the correspondence between them. I still do not see this having been discussed here before, so I still wait for a debate.

arnoldo · 06-01-2009, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zhugin

In http://carotta.de/subseite/texte/jwc...t.html#text281 F. Carotta claims that "chresto" in Suetonius' Claudius 25:3 (Iudaeos impulsore chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit) and "chrestiani" in Tacitus' "ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit quos per flagitia invisos vulgus chrestianos appellabat") mean "usury/usurers" (speculators). He translates the sentence in Suetonius as ‘…the Jews who practised usury and thereby caused constant turmoil, he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome.’

About the Tacitus text, see http://www.textexcavation.com/tacitustestimonium.html
About the Suetonius text, see http://www.textexcavation.com/suetoniustestimonium.html

The source you listed has the following passage which parallels Acts 18:2 . . .

Quote:

Suetonius, Claudius 25.1-5 . . .

Iudaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit. Germanorum legatis in orchestra sedere permisit, simplicitate eorum et fiducia commotus, quod in popularia deducti, cum animadvertissent Parthos et Armenios sedentis in senatu, ad eadem loca sponte transierant, nihilo deteriorem virtutem aut condicionem suam praedicantes.

Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.
http://www.textexcavation.com/suetoniustestimonium.html

Quote:

Acts 18:2

2There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them,

zhugin · 06-01-2009, 06:12 PM

Yes, but in Acts nowhere we are given information regarding why "Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome".

arnoldo · 06-02-2009, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zhugin

Yes, but in Acts nowhere we are given information regarding why "Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome".

True, Romans also doesn't state why Priscilla & Aquilla later returned to Rome . . .

Quote:

To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints. . . 3Greet Priscilla[a] and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus. 4They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them.

However, since we know that Claudius died in 54 A.D,. it may explain why some jews eventually returned to Rome.

arnoldo · 06-03-2009, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zhugin

In http://carotta.de/subseite/texte/jwc...t.html#text281 F. Carotta claims that "chresto" in Suetonius' Claudius 25:3 (Iudaeos impulsore chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit) and "chrestiani" in Tacitus' "ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit quos per flagitia invisos vulgus chrestianos appellabat") mean "usury/usurers" (speculators). He translates the sentence in Suetonius as ‘…the Jews who practised usury and thereby caused constant turmoil, he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome.’

About the Tacitus text, see http://www.textexcavation.com/tacitustestimonium.html

Peter Kirby has some good information regarding the Tacitus Annals 15.44 text on his site as well. . .

Quote:

. . . Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. . .

. . . According to John P. Meier (A Marginal Jew, p. 91), "It could be, instead, that Tacitus is simply repeating what was common knowledge about Christians about the beginning of the 2d century." According to Robert Van Voorst (Jesus Outside the New Testament, p. 52), "The most likely source of Tacitus's information about Christ is Tacitus's own dealings with Christians, directly or indirectly." However, note well the contrary opinion of Maurice Goguel (Jesus the Nazarene, p. 43): "But one fact is certain, and that is, Tacitus knew of a document, which was neither Jewish nor Christian, which connected Christianity with the Christ crucified by Pontius Pilate." The present writer believes that the most persuasive case is made by those who maintain that Tacitus made use of a first century Roman document concerning the nature and status of the Christian religion. As to the reliability of that source, following normal historical practice, it is prudently assumed to be accurate until demonstrated otherwise. The reference from Tacitus constitutes prima facie evidence for the historicity of Jesus.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/tacitus.html

Toto · 06-12-2009, 06:07 PM

Richard Carrier has indicated that he has no problem with his email being reprinted here, but pointed out that it was unreadable as posted. I have taken the liberty of adding line breaks. Perhaps this will get some comments.

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06-01-2009, 02:06 PM	#11
zhugin Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Tellus Posts: 45	In the case of Carrier and Carotta I merely forwarded the correspondence between them. I still do not see this having been discussed here before, so I still wait for a debate.

06-01-2009, 06:12 PM	#13
zhugin Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Tellus Posts: 45	Yes, but in Acts nowhere we are given information regarding why "Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome".

06-12-2009, 06:07 PM	#16
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Richard Carrier has indicated that he has no problem with his email being reprinted here, but pointed out that it was unreadable as posted. I have taken the liberty of adding line breaks. Perhaps this will get some comments.

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