Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Joan of Bark · 03-17-2009, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Laser

I've cursed a good many things in my life, from sticker grass to weeds: from liver to Ford cars: from some politicians to nephrologists. I don't know if it's insane or not, but I intend to keep casting maledictions and aspersions on whoever and whatever displeases me. I hope that doesn't make me insane!

If you believe your curses will have any real effect, then yes, you are insane.

DCHindley · 03-21-2009, 06:52 AM

Here and there I have expressed my opinion that the original purpose the Gospels served was as "apologies" (a class of literature) for Christian origins. While it mostly gets poo-poohed as either not romantic or mythical enough, here is seen a projection of the very reasons for the origin of Christianity:

Jesus was hungry = "We Gentiles were hungry for something that would fill our needs"

He saw in the distance a fig tree covered with leaves, so he went to see if he could find any figs on it = "We saw the Jews, and how as a people they appeared to flourish, which promised a fruitful age to come, and approached to see if we can find what we need there"

But when he came to it, he found only leaves, because it was not the right time for figs = "When we did so, our expectations were frustrated, for they sought to establish that fruitful age before it was God's intention to do so"

Jesus said to the fig tree, "No one shall ever eat figs from you again!" = "So we have forsaken the Jews and their expectations"

In other words, these gentile followers of Jesus came to reject a nationalistic Jewish interpretation of the kingdom of God predicted in Jewish scripture, and projected this back into Jesus' own mouth. In other places in these Gospels, these gentile followers of Jesus offered their own interpretation, where Jesus' death ushered in a different kind of kingdom, where spiritual salvation is extended universally to all those who believe in the one God.

That being said, there is also evidence that some Christians did expect a literal 1,000 year reign on earth as well, although Justin claims these are in error. Eusebius also mocks Papias for holding such an opinion.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyrdsmyth

Mathhew 21: 18-19:

The next day, as they were coming back from Bethany, Jesus was hungry. He saw in the distance a fig tree covered with leaves, so he went to see if he could find any figs on it. But when he came to it, he found only leaves, because it was not the right time for figs. Jesus said to the fig tree, "No one shall ever eat figs from you again!"

And his disciples heard him.

If a friend of mine did this, I would seriously question his sanity.

It's a perplexing passage, for a number of reasons. For one thing, it seems like evidence against the idea that Jesus was perfect. He loses his temper in other passages (which could also be taken as evidence he is not absolutely perfect), but in this passage, it's not just that he loses his temper -- he's angry with vegetation. It has always made me think of this line by Starbuck in Moby Dick: "Madness! To be enraged with a dumb thing, Captain Ahab, seems blasphemous." Or maybe, it is more accurate to say, the line in Moby Dick has always reminded me of Jesus cursing the fig tree.

It's perplexing that this passage was included in this Gospel, if the intent was to testify to his godhood and perfection. It's also perplexing that the last line was added, as if the writer is pre-emptively responding to a challenge. You don't believe me? His disciples all heard him, too -- so ask any of them. It was weird, man... Jesus was, like, really losing it. Over a fig tree. Seriously, dude.

Later, they see the fig tree again (Matthew 21:20-22) and it is dead. And Jesus goes into his speech about "whoever tells this hill to get up and throw itself in the sea and does not doubt in his heart, but believes what he says will happen, it will be done for him." Presumably, that was the point of cursing the fig tree: Jesus was demonstrating the power of faith. Evidently, if I'm interpreting this correctly, Jesus is saying that power over the material world is directly related to a total absence of doubt.

Still, I can't help but feel sorry for the poor fig tree. This is a passage that I've always found disturbing. It just seems uncharacteristically vindictive, and not at all a picture of a "gentle, loving god." I keep picturing the little fir tree in A Charlie Brown Christmas. Couldn't Jesus have equally demonstrated this power of faith by causing it to bear figs out of season?

iPodAddict181 · 03-22-2009, 01:05 AM

My friends and I were discussing this a few days ago. Yes, I do believe that this is an act of insanity. Personally, if any of my friends, or anyone for that matter, were to yell at a tree, I would question their mental health.

jon-eli · 03-22-2009, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iPodAddict181

Personally, if any of my friends, or anyone for that matter, were to yell at a tree, I would question their mental health.

This would be an anachronistic application of analogy. 21st-century standards of behaviour cannot be retrojected into 1st-century Palestine.

gdeering · 03-22-2009, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jon-eli

This would be an anachronistic application of analogy. 21st-century standards of behaviour cannot be retrojected into 1st-century Palestine.

Well, apologists spend a lot of time applying their 19-20th century mindset to Jesus, so maybe it's fair.

Actually I am in the in the midrash camp on the tree, but agree totally that one should try to understand conceptual/cultural understanding time. It just works better as a two donkey scenario, that is, midrash hash.

Gregg

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03-22-2009, 01:05 AM	#43
iPodAddict181 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 44	My friends and I were discussing this a few days ago. Yes, I do believe that this is an act of insanity. Personally, if any of my friends, or anyone for that matter, were to yell at a tree, I would question their mental health.

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