Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 11-17-2007, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
This than looks to be the best evidence of HJ from Paul:

Romans 1:3
http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Romans_1

3 "concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,"

Romans 9:5
9:5 "whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."

1 Corinthians 2:8
http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/1_Corinthians_2

2:8 "which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory:"

1 Corinthians 11:23-25
11:23 "For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread;

11:24 and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me.

11:25 In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me."

Galatians 1:19
http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Galatians_1
1:19 "But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord`s brother."

Galatians 3:16
3:16 "Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Galatians 4:4
4:4 "but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,"

1_Thessalonians 2:14-15
http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/1_Thessalonians_2
2:14 "For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;"

JW:
In order to consider the value of this evidence we need to determine Paul's likely Sources in General and specifically for each reference.

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

How can Paul's words contradict Paul's Jesus? Paul's words need independent corroboration from a non-apologetic source to be considered "good evidence".

Just as Matthew' Jesus does not make Mark's Jesus a figure of history, Mark's use of Paul, as you propose, does not in anyway put any credence to Paul's epistles.

If an author wrote a fictitious history of Paul, attempting to place Paul in the 1st century, just after the supposed ascension of Jesus, then it is likely that Paul's writings were not early, as the fiction implied, but later.

JoeWallack · 11-21-2007, 07:41 AM

JW:
In order to establish HJ it seems to me that there should be a Minimum level of established information for the subject. Regarding HJ though it would seem that most potential minimum information is disputed:

1) When was HJ born? This Thread demonstrates and than some that the two supposed priMary sources for HJ birth differ by at least 10 years:

Carrier's Luke vs. Matthew on the Year of Christ's Birth Now Up At ErrancyWiki

2) When did HJ die? This Thread is close to demonstrating that the two primary sources for HJ death (HJ age) differ by close to 20 years:

According To "John" About How Old Was Jesus When He Died?

Is there any significant piece of information for HJ that is undisputed?

Joseph

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Rich Oliver · 11-21-2007, 09:53 AM

Well I've never liked the HJ and MJ categories. The fundamental question is: had at least some of the Jurusalem Christians or proto Christistians or what ever you want to call them, of which Paul speaks been followers of the Jesus, of which Paul speaks?

The answer from a modest study of Paul's writings even in translation seems to me to be plainly "no".

Amaleq13 · 11-21-2007, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Is there any significant piece of information for HJ that is undisputed?

Cause of death

Ben C Smith · 11-21-2007, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

When did HJ die? This Thread is close to demonstrating that the two primary sources for HJ death (HJ age) differ by close to 20 years....

John and the synoptics appear to agree that Jesus died under Pilate. Does that count as a similarity, in your opinion?

Ben.

aa5874 · 11-21-2007, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

1) When was HJ born? This Thread demonstrates and than some that the two supposed priMary sources for HJ birth differ by at least 10 years.

The birth of Jesus as described in the NT, Matthew and Luke, is absolutely not the birth of a figure of history, it is the birth of some spiritual god-like creature, possibly with the DNA of a Holy Ghost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

2) When did HJ die? This Thread is close to demonstrating that the two primary sources for HJ death (HJ age) differ by close to 20 years.

Can the offsopring of the Holy Ghost, as described in the NT, really die a natural death and be buried and never resurrect? The HJ is all fantasy outside of the NT.

mountainman · 11-22-2007, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Is there any significant piece of information for HJ that is undisputed?

Cause of death

Usually attributed to lack of breath.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

JoeWallack · 11-22-2007, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Is there any significant piece of information for HJ that is undisputed?

Cause of death

JW:

Quote:

1) Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

2) he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures;

3) he appeared to Cephas

Let's consider the potential Sources for "Cause of death":

1) We have Nothing by anyone claiming to have known Jesus that says the cause of death was Crucifixion.

2) We have Nothing by anyone claiming to have known someone who knew Jesus that says those who knew Jesus said the cause of death was Crucifixion.

I'll assume Doug that you think there is an Implication from Paul for 2). How good is that Implication? Seems to me that there in 1 Corinthians would have been the place for Paul to say it. Why didn't Paul say it there? Is it possible that Paul didn't say it because those who knew Jesus didn't say it (rhetorical)? Could this explain why we have no Narrative preserved by anyone who knew Jesus (because they didn't say it - rhetorical)?

That Jesus was Crucifed is something more than the most important Natural Assertian by Orthodox Christianity. Therefore, wouldn't Orthodox Christianity insist on this Assertian in order to preserve witness thereby casting doubt on the historical value of such testimony (you can answer this one)? The related problem is that "Mark" appears to have taken Paul's bare Assertian that Jesus was crucified and created a Crucifixion account out of it which, as these Holy Boards have demonstrated, is totally Implausible.

If Jesus being Crucified is the only minimum information regarding Jesus that can be historically supported than HJ has serious problems.

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Amaleq13 · 11-22-2007, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

I'll assume Doug that you think there is an Implication from Paul for 2).

No, not necessarily.

Quote:

Seems to me that there in 1 Corinthians would have been the place for Paul to say it.

Even if it was only the death of the messiah and not the specific means of death that was "according to the scriptures"?

Quote:

Is it possible that Paul didn't say it because those who knew Jesus didn't say it (rhetorical)?

It is possible that Paul introduced the means but I would think the group in Jerusalem would have focused on that rather than gentiles getting circumcized if that were the case.

Quote:

If Jesus being Crucified is the only minimum information regarding Jesus that can be historically supported than HJ has serious problems.

I agree.

Clivedurdle · 11-22-2007, 09:33 AM

Is the cause of death undisputed?

A vague scriptural death on a tree - (hanging?) gets turned into a Roman execution method in a Judaic area with a strong preference for stoning?

We only have Mark as the source - the other gospels are dependent - and GMark may have been written in Rome, and it does look like a play.

We also have the very powerful symbol of the cross - and can legitimately ask which came first - the symbol or its specific presentation in a context?

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11-21-2007, 07:41 AM	#102
JoeWallack Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nazareth Posts: 2,357	JW: In order to establish HJ it seems to me that there should be a Minimum level of established information for the subject. Regarding HJ though it would seem that most potential minimum information is disputed: 1) When was HJ born? This Thread demonstrates and than some that the two supposed priMary sources for HJ birth differ by at least 10 years: Carrier's Luke vs. Matthew on the Year of Christ's Birth Now Up At ErrancyWiki 2) When did HJ die? This Thread is close to demonstrating that the two primary sources for HJ death (HJ age) differ by close to 20 years: According To "John" About How Old Was Jesus When He Died? Is there any significant piece of information for HJ that is undisputed? Joseph STORY, n. A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached. http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

11-21-2007, 09:53 AM	#103
Rich Oliver Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 54	Well I've never liked the HJ and MJ categories. The fundamental question is: had at least some of the Jurusalem Christians or proto Christistians or what ever you want to call them, of which Paul speaks been followers of the Jesus, of which Paul speaks? The answer from a modest study of Paul's writings even in translation seems to me to be plainly "no".

11-22-2007, 09:33 AM	#110
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Is the cause of death undisputed? A vague scriptural death on a tree - (hanging?) gets turned into a Roman execution method in a Judaic area with a strong preference for stoning? We only have Mark as the source - the other gospels are dependent - and GMark may have been written in Rome, and it does look like a play. We also have the very powerful symbol of the cross - and can legitimately ask which came first - the symbol or its specific presentation in a context?

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