Freethought & Rationalism Archive

French Prometheus · 08-26-2004, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbernier

Without wading through this entire thread I do not know if the following question has been asked but I feel that it is very obvious: So what? So what if Hitler was a Christian? That does not mean that there is a necessary connection between Nazism and Christianity.

If Hitler was a Christian (and he was), that doesn't imply anything about the veracity or worth of Christianity. At best (or worst), it proves that one can be a Christian and a mass murderer. But we don't need Hitler to know that (many other examples in history). Just as one can believe in a given atheistic philosophy, e.g. stalinism, and be a mass murderer too.

Quote:

You have to establish that for this to really be meaningful:

I don't recall anyone on this thread who said that Hitler's beliefs were relevant to anything. This thread was just about debunking the myth that Hitler was an atheist or a pagan or more generally anything but a Christian.

Quote:

That somehow Nazism (and its corresponding anti-semitism, etc.) are necessary products of Christian thought and practice.

The genesis of nazism is a very complex issue and off-topic here. It's not a "necessary product" of Christianity.
As for anti-judaism, it existed before Christianity but it was an important component of Christian history (pogroms, forced conversions, deicide and Verus Israel theological theories,...). During the racist 19th century, anti-Judaism changed into anti-Semitism. But according to Hitler himself, his anti-Semitism had a mostly Christian origin.

French Prometheus · 08-26-2004, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philippe*

Mr. Irishguy has already given you evidences at the beginning of the thread. I guess it was suffisant. So you've got evidences he was a christian in public and evidences that he was anti-christian with his nazi fellows.

The Table Talks were debunked by Toto here. They are no evidence at all. There is no evidence that Hitler was anti-Christian in private and plenty of evidence that he was Christian both in public and in private.
Hitler's words "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so" were addressed in private to Gerhard Engel and can be found in the latter's private diary.
Still no evidence that Hitler was not sincere when he said that Jesus was his lord and savior.

The Evil One · 08-26-2004, 07:59 AM

The "so what" is that it is often claimed that being a Christian makes you a moral person, and being an atheist makes you immoral. The historic person most frequently agreed to be immoral is Hitler. Many Christians have claimed that Hitler was not a Christian, saying against his own words that he was an atheist or a Satanist or who-knows-what. That's the "so what".

There have been atheist mass murderers and there have been Christian mass murderers. But some Christians have tried to claim that the Christian mass murderers were actually atheists. This thread is about squishing that argument.

Gawen · 08-26-2004, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psalm 13:5

I'm sorry, but I think some questions are so ridiculous that they don't even warrant a serious reply.

I'm sorry, but many think some world views are so ridiculous that they don't even warrant a serious reply. But we try.

Magus55 · 08-26-2004, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Pallant

Yes, you are still an atheist. At least with respect to all of the world's other gods.

No i'm not. Atheism doesn't allow one God, and exclude all the others. You are either an atheist, and believe in no gods, or a theist and believe in at least one. I believe in at least one, but according to the stupid NTSF it would be fallacious to say, despite believing in God, that I'm not an atheist.

Jack the Bodiless · 08-26-2004, 08:25 AM

Quote:

You are either an atheist, and believe in no gods, or a theist and believe in at least one.

And, if that one happens to be the Christian one: you're a Christian.

As Hitler was.

...Well, that was easy.

Magus55 · 08-26-2004, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prometheus_fr

Bonjour Philippe et bienvenue sur IIBD.

What is the evidence to support this claim of yours that Hitler wanted to eradicate Christianity?
Did you read the whole thread?

Hitler has stated in other books that he considered Christianity a plague, and an abomination. Philippe has a good point though. Maybe Hitler claimed to be Christian as a political strategy. If most of your followers were Christian, denouncing Christianity wouldn't help your cause too much. It seems very likely that Hitler merely claimed to be Christian. His actions certaintly don't support that he cared about Christ or Christianity. You even stated the quotes about him affirming Christianity were public speeches.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Gawen · 08-26-2004, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbernier

There is no question that it has a good deal of its roots in German Christian ideology. But did that have to be? Was this inevitable, given the basic teachings of Christianity? That is the real question.

That's two questions.
1. But did that have to be?

Who's to say? Perhaps it was the 'best' way to further Nazi ideology. It certainly worked.

2. Was this inevitable?

Seems to be a moot question.

Who knows the inside God and of a madmans mind?

Jack the Bodiless · 08-26-2004, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

Hitler has stated in other books that he considered Christianity a plague, and an abomination.

I have asked you this before, and I will ask you again:

WHAT "other books"?

Plognark · 08-26-2004, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbernier

Without wading through this entire thread I do not know if the following question has been asked but I feel that it is very obvious: So what? So what if Hitler was a Christian? That does not mean that there is a necessary connection between Nazism and Christianity. You have to establish that for this to really be meaningful: That somehow Nazism (and its corresponding anti-semitism, etc.) are necessary products of Christian thought and practice. Whether Hitler was a Christian is irrelevant to that Christian; all it would establish is that in this one historically contingent human biography we have a Nazi, an anti-semite and a Christian all wrapped up in one. That says something about Hitler; it says nothing about Christianity.

Basically was Nazism a necessary consequence of Christian thought or a contingent consequence? This is the crucial question here. There is no question that it has a good deal of its roots in German Christian ideology. But did that have to be? Was this inevitable, given the basic teachings of Christianity? That is the real question.

Thank you for making a point i've tried to make myself a number of times

For any lurkers, or whoever, replace the word "Christian" in the quoted post with "Atheist" and you'll understand why "Hitler was an atheist and was evil, therefore his atheism is the source of the Nazi evil" is a crock of shit, just the same as "Hitler was a Christian and was evil, therefore his Christian beliefs were the source of the Nazi evil."

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08-26-2004, 07:59 AM	#103
The Evil One Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: England Posts: 2,561	The "so what" is that it is often claimed that being a Christian makes you a moral person, and being an atheist makes you immoral. The historic person most frequently agreed to be immoral is Hitler. Many Christians have claimed that Hitler was not a Christian, saying against his own words that he was an atheist or a Satanist or who-knows-what. That's the "so what". There have been atheist mass murderers and there have been Christian mass murderers. But some Christians have tried to claim that the Christian mass murderers were actually atheists. This thread is about squishing that argument.

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