Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Wads4 · 07-06-2006, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomboyMom

To come at it from another angle, wouldn't Egyptian records say something about Hebrew slaves and their escape? My understanding is that:

"The many Egyptian documents known to us do not make any reference to the sojourn of the Children of Israel in Egypt or the events of the Exodus." Ze'ev Herzog, professor at Tel Aviv University

I think the alleged sojourn of the Israelites in Egypt has been confused with that of the Hyksos shepherd-kings' ocupation of Egypt, and their expulsion by the Egyptians is distorted into the Exodus story.

Wads4 · 07-06-2006, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haran

Something some atheists miss in all of this is that the Bible claims to be a revelation from a God. Fairy tales are intended as fiction and we know it. There an entire world of difference.

I have never yet read a fairy story which begins "this is only fiction". They read as if factually true,-otherwise they would not have any appeal.

Wads4 · 07-06-2006, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Researchers are even now trying to recreate manna - apart from not creating human wastes, it also healed all aches and pains and no one died, no blisters for walking all that distance!

Kraft foods and Pizza Hut intend to keep the recipe secret as it would destroy hospitals, farming and markets worldwide.

One theory is that Manna was a semi-edible hydrocarbon fall-out from the eruption of Sanotorini, which also polluted the Nile, causing the plagues, as well as a tsunami which caused odd tidal effects in the gulf of Suez,--the Sea of Reeds.

Haran · 07-06-2006, 02:51 PM

Alright guys, I'm going to do this once... For all those who are complaining that I haven't answered their questions as if that implies that I can't, just remember that there are a lot of you and a lot of questions coming at me. I'm just one person with limited time for posts. I'll get to the ones I can, but my beliefs are my beliefs... If you think you'll shake them, then try someone else. If you're just interested in them, then feel free to ask and I'll tell you what I believe.

Johnny Skeptic · 07-06-2006, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haran

Alright guys, I'm going to do this once... For all those who are complaining that I haven't answered their questions as if that implies that I can't, just remember that there are a lot of you and a lot of questions coming at me. I'm just one person with limited time for posts. I'll get to the ones I can, but my beliefs are my beliefs... If you think you'll shake them, then try someone else. If you're just interested in them, then feel free to ask and I'll tell you what I believe.

You have misjudged what the situation is. I do not expect to convince you of anything, and you shouldn't expect to convince me of anything. I was a fundamentalist Christian for over 35 years, and I can assure you that nothing that you could ever say would change my mind. Committed Christians and skeptics seldom change their minds. Just like in political elections, both sides are mostly competing to influence the undecided crowd. Many people who visit various debate web sites never make a post, and many of them are undecided. In my post #26, I showed that your beliefs are not consistent. I do not expect you to admit that, but I do expect many of the undecided crowd to accept my arguments, especially if you do not reply to my arguments within say two weeks.

I know how it is to have to answers lots of posts. I had that to deal with when I used to debate at the Theology Web. Sometimes I would spend all day at my computer.

Anat · 07-06-2006, 04:39 PM

On Kadesh Barnea, there is Rudolph Cohen's BAR article Did I Excavate Kadesh Barnea? from 1981, that mentions reaching virgin soil in a limited number of spots. Then from here

Quote:

The description of a thirty-eight-year encampment at Kadesh-barnea (Deut 1:19–2:15), which is prominent in the biblical tradition and gave rise to an important pilgrimage-festival in the time of the Monarchy, has long intrigued biblical scholars and archaeologists. Following the topographical indications in the Bible, Kadesh-barnea has been quite plausibly identified since the 19th century with the well-known oasis at ˓Ain el-Qudeirat, near Quseima on the modern Israel–Egypt border. The small tell near the spring was sounded in 1956 by Moshe Dothan and was then extensively excavated to virgin soil in 1976–1982 by Rudolph Cohen. The latter has shown conclusively that these remains consist of three successive Israelite forts (Levels I–III) of the 10th–7th/6th centuries b.c., with nothing whatsoever of earlier occupation, not even scattered sherds (Cohen 1983). Thus the Kadesh-barnea episode, on present evidence, has little historical basis and appears to have become significant only in the united monarchy, when the Exodus tradition was crystallizing.

(bold mine)

I see hints that further publications exist, but not publically available on the web.

If a large population spent several decades in one place, I think at least something would be expected, even before excavating the relevant layer. That's why the absence of even scattered sherds is significant IMO.

And then there's the lack of correspondence between the conquest account, both in Transjordan and in Canaan and the archaeology. This is sometimes explained by dating the exodus and conquest to the Early Bronze Age, but this leads to either serious contradiction with historical accounts from Assyria/Babylon/Persia (by ending up dating the babylonian exile to the end of Middle Bronze Age) or having an outrageously long time of the Judges, with unexplained changes in habitation patterns.

Roland · 07-06-2006, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanBZ

Let's say that the Exodus did happen. Then we shoudl expect to find certain things, such as Egyptian records of having Israelite slaves, records of the plagues, etc. However, not all of that is humiliating to the Egyptians. For example, if these events are true, we should expect to find records of the Egyptians HAVING Israelite slaves, even if they cover up the plagues.

And if the plagues did happen, the Egyptians would have either had a famine or would have had to import food from other countries (the plagues killed the animals and the crops). If there was a famine and the economy collapsed, there would be other evidence besides writings (such as mass graves). If the Egyptians bought crops and animals from other countries, those other countries would have written about it. The fact that none of these things exist (records of having Hebrew slaves, evidence of a famine, or records from other countries of mass agricultural exports to Egypt) is pretty strong evidence that the Exodus did not happen.

I'm not so sure about the famine. After all, the cattle that died in the story kept coming back to life then dying again, then coming back to life, then dying again over and over and over. :Cheeky:

TomboyMom · 07-06-2006, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haran

Alright guys, I'm going to do this once... For all those who are complaining that I haven't answered their questions as if that implies that I can't, just remember that there are a lot of you and a lot of questions coming at me. I'm just one person with limited time for posts. I'll get to the ones I can, but my beliefs are my beliefs... If you think you'll shake them, then try someone else. If you're just interested in them, then feel free to ask and I'll tell you what I believe.

It's not about you, so it's not a problem if your mind is closed to new information. The idea is that if you and other people discuss your disagreement, that discussion is beneficial to other readers. If you enjoy that kind of thing, it may benefit you as well.

Waning Moon Conrad · 07-06-2006, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haran

Sending his son, Jesus, to die on a cross for their wrong doings, such that if they believe (ie. have faith) in him they'll have eternal life. But you knew that already because it's the all-too-familiar John 3:16.

That's completely unethical.

Why should people burn in hell for eternity because they don't believe that God sent his alleged son who is the same God but who isn't the same person as God to die on a cross because God created a serpent that tempted Adam and Eve to eat fruit from a tree that gave them knowledge of good and evil?

It would be ethical for God to simply judge people according to their behaviour and to place them in behaviour-appropriate venues after they have died and then to reassign them as their behaviour changes.

vsop44 · 07-06-2006, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haran

Something some atheists miss in all of this is that the Bible claims to be a revelation from a God. Fairy tales are intended as fiction and we know it. There an entire world of difference.

Unlike you , atheists do not swallow the CLAIM,hook . line and sinker !
:banghead:

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07-06-2006, 02:51 PM	#54
Haran Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 1,490	Alright guys, I'm going to do this once... For all those who are complaining that I haven't answered their questions as if that implies that I can't, just remember that there are a lot of you and a lot of questions coming at me. I'm just one person with limited time for posts. I'll get to the ones I can, but my beliefs are my beliefs... If you think you'll shake them, then try someone else. If you're just interested in them, then feel free to ask and I'll tell you what I believe.

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