Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 01-17-2009, 05:10 PM

Luke 10:8 'When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you.'

I wonder why there was such an almighty fuss in the early church about whether or not Christians should eat some pagan foodstuffs, when Jesus said Christian missionaries should eat whatever food the people they visit set before them.

Deus Ex · 01-17-2009, 05:25 PM

Surely, the Holy Ghost gave all early christians the same instructions?

Sheshbazzar · 01-17-2009, 08:06 PM

evidently not, on several very important and devisive matters.

spamandham · 01-17-2009, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Luke 10:8 'When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you.'

I wonder why there was such an almighty fuss in the early church about whether or not Christians should eat some pagan foodstuffs,

To me, this is the author of Luke putting words into Jesus' mouth to settle doctrinal differences between Jewish and gentile Christians. The author was gentile under this approach, telling Jewish Christians to do as Romans do, when in Rome.

ApostateAbe · 01-17-2009, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Luke 10:8 'When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you.'

I wonder why there was such an almighty fuss in the early church about whether or not Christians should eat some pagan foodstuffs, when Jesus said Christian missionaries should eat whatever food the people they visit set before them.

Christians who followed the Jewish law would prefer to eat only kosher food. There was some division over whether Christians should follow Jewish law or not. For example, Peter was on the side of the Jewish law but Paul was on the side of loosening those restrictions. Early Christians often inserted lines into a holy text to help win a debate, and this is likely one of them. The original Jesus likely made no exception to following the Jewish law. Nor did he send out evangelists.

Steven Carr · 01-18-2009, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Christians who followed the Jewish law would prefer to eat only kosher food. There was some division over whether Christians should follow Jewish law or not. For example, Peter was on the side of the Jewish law but Paul was on the side of loosening those restrictions. Early Christians often inserted lines into a holy text to help win a debate, and this is likely one of them. The original Jesus likely made no exception to following the Jewish law. Nor did he send out evangelists.

How strange then that Christian apologists routinely claim that no such invention of early sayings ever took place...

Paul Copan says 'Second, the claim that the early Christian communities read back into Jesus' teachings their own concerns and controversies won't withstand scrutiny. If such matters were invented and projected backward to Jesus to substantiate them, then why are issues such as spiritual gifts (e.g., speaking in tongues [1 Cor. 12, 14]); divorcing when deserted by an unbelieving spouse (1 Cor. 7:15); eating meat offered to idols (1 Cor. 8); or circumcision (Acts 15)--issues that received significant attention in early Christian communities--glaringly absent in Jesus' teaching? These disputes often divided many of the early Christian communities, but we don't find Jesus addressing them.'

http://www.rzim.org/GlobalElements/G...1/Default.aspx

Clivedurdle · 01-18-2009, 04:26 AM

1 Corinthians 8

Quote:

1Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge.[a] Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the man who loves God is known by God. 4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
7But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
9Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.

But compare Acts 10

Quote:

Peter's Vision

9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat." 14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."
15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."
16This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.
17While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon's house was and stopped at the gate. 18They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.
19While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three[a] men are looking for you.

Was Acts written without knowledge of 1 Corinthians?

You cannot get much clearer than:

Quote:

Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

Especially when it is repeated three times - like a cock crowing.

Steven Carr · 01-18-2009, 07:25 AM

Of course in Matthew 10, Jesus explicitly tells the disciples not to go near Gentiles, so there is no commandment about eating whatever food is set before them.

But in Luke 10, there is no instruction not to visit Gentiles, so the question of food arises, and Luke says Christian missionaries were to eat whatever is set in front of them.

It is obvious that the Gospellers made their Jesus support their own private theological agendas.

Chili · 01-18-2009, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Of course in Matthew 10, Jesus explicitly tells the disciples not to go near Gentiles, so there is no commandment about eating whatever food is set before them.

But in Luke 10, there is no instruction not to visit Gentiles, so the question of food arises, and Luke says Christian missionaries were to eat whatever is set in front of them.

It is obvious that the Gospellers made their Jesus support their own private theological agendas.

From the above it is quite obvious that the Matthew Christians were the selfrigtheous saved sinners still upholding the law and their faith in Jesus while Luke's Christians were set free from religion but were to consume wherever enters their mind towards liberation. So the order was not to run away religion but to digest the remains of religion in understanding.

arnoldo · 01-18-2009, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

1 Corinthians 8

Quote:

1Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge.[a] Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the man who loves God is known by God. 4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
7But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
9Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.

But compare Acts 10

Was Acts written without knowledge of 1 Corinthians?

You cannot get much clearer than:

Quote:

Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

Especially when it is repeated three times - like a cock crowing.

The dilema Peter was facing in Acts 10 was not what food to yet, rather if he should visit Cornelius.

Also in 1 corinthians there is the following condition to eating food sacrificed to idols.

Quote:

8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. 9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of your's become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. 13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

01-17-2009, 05:10 PM	#1
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Table Fellowship Luke 10:8 'When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you.' I wonder why there was such an almighty fuss in the early church about whether or not Christians should eat some pagan foodstuffs, when Jesus said Christian missionaries should eat whatever food the people they visit set before them.

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01-17-2009, 05:25 PM	#2
Deus Ex Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,348	Surely, the Holy Ghost gave all early christians the same instructions?

01-17-2009, 08:06 PM	#3
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	evidently not, on several very important and devisive matters.

01-18-2009, 07:25 AM	#8
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Of course in Matthew 10, Jesus explicitly tells the disciples not to go near Gentiles, so there is no commandment about eating whatever food is set before them. But in Luke 10, there is no instruction not to visit Gentiles, so the question of food arises, and Luke says Christian missionaries were to eat whatever is set in front of them. It is obvious that the Gospellers made their Jesus support their own private theological agendas.

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