dog-on

I understand the first passage to mean something like the following:

They are Israelites … (to them belong the patriarchs), - known through their writings

and from whom is the Christ, according to the flesh - the Messiah, based on a worldly understanding of their writings.

The second:

From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh; - we regard no one from a worldly viewpoint any longer


even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer - Just as the messiah was once understood from a worldly viewpoint, we now understand him in the spirit.

dog-on

You are trying to fit modern ideas into an ancient mold and confusing yourself.

If you read the suffering servant passages "in the flesh", they hold one meaning.

If you read the same passages "in the spirit", they hold a different meaning entirely.

archibald

Not even remotely convincing.

Here, again, is one of the actual texts in question:

'Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom [pertain] the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service [of God], and the promises;
5 of whom [are] the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ [came], who is over all.


What do you do when you get to man ('anthropos'), elsewhere, btw? :]

And it must always be noted that there are a heck of a lot of other 'earthly seeming' references and none to upper realms (for Jesus before he died).

dog-on

What upper realms are you talking about?

You worked yourself all the way around it, but missed the cherry.

I asked you this before, somewhere.

What do Christians mean when they say that they are "in the spirit"?

BTW, what does this passage mean, exactly?

archibald

Doherty's. I'm suggesting that Paul's writing sound much more like he believed Jesus had actually lived and died on earth than that he didn't believe this.

You lost me

Whatever possible answer you or I may give to this, it's not dealing with the texts in question.

In any case, I can't think of an answer which does my view any harm, I really just can't see the point in going off on that tangent. If you can, then by all means, answer your own question. Do you have any examples of Christians saying this?

Surely, in any case, you should be asking what a modern Christian would mean by something that wasn't in the spirit, since we are not 'doing' in the spirit, on this thread? I'm confused. Best if you just answer your own question, I think.

archibald

Look, Dog-on, as with the above item, I have no reluctance to get into possible meanings of that, but...is it strictly on topic?

It doesn't have 'in the flesh' in it.

Again, I can't see how it might affect what I think here?

You are being a bit rhetorically cryptic.

dog-on

Of course, this is exactly on topic and the actual point. There is nothing cryptic about it. Would there be a difference in the understanding of the quoted passage between say, a Jew and a Christian?

If you understand that, you will understand the difference between "in accordance with the flesh" and "in accordance with the spirit". At least, I hope you will.

dog-on

You can't understand "in the flesh", unless you understand "in the spirit"...

archibald

Ok, but why don't you just tell me what a Christian means by 'in the spirit'. Apart from anything else, I'm not entirely familiar with going to church, and can't say as I've heard a Christian saying this.

But....


The issue here is that 'Paul' uses the phrase twice, in short succession, and I really think we should be addressing the text, rather than asking what Christians might mean when referring to something else. It's one thing to suggest that it's a way of looking/thinking about something, but given the way it's used in the text here.......

'Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom [pertain] the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service [of God], and the promises;
5 of whom [are] the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ [came], who is over all.


Btw, I qoted 2 Cor 5 in it's entirety. I think both phrases are there, but I still don't see any reference to a non-earthly realm.

GakuseiDon

Thank you. What does "based on a worldly understanding of their writings" mean, in your view?

Do you mean: we once understood the prophetic writings as indicating there would be an earthly Messiah, but now we understand he would be a spiritual Messiah?