kcdad

That Marcion thought the story was a historical account means nothing to me...
Either Jesus was flesh, and therefore mortal or ... well there is no alternative....
HJ is the ONLY proposition that makes any sense.

aa5874

You simply cannot ignore the description and activities of Jesus and then make stuff up.

Jesus was described as a Spirit and water-walker and witnessed by Peter, the supposed first bishop of Rome, who nearly drowned or began to sink.

It should be obvious that Jesus of the NT had no human flesh.

A human Jesus makes no SENSE in the NT, since the disciples would still be in hiding for fear of the Jews not knowing what had happened to the body of Jesus. And Peter, the supposed bishop of Rome, would have already denied, at least three times, even knowing Jesus.

Only a SUPERNATURAL Jesus makes sense, a Jesus that can resurrect, so that Paul could proclaim all over the Roman Empire, "Paul, an apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead, and "If Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins".

The HJ could not resurrect so there would have been no salvation story.

It was not necessary for there to have been an actual HJ to claim Jesus resurrected, only belief is needed.

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition. Jesus was just a belief or was intended to be believed.

kcdad

Peter wrote NOTHING about Jesus walking on water. You are as obsessed with the "flesh" as the Catholics... So did Peter not have any flesh either since he walked on the water too?


except a supernatural Jesus can not experience life as a human being, can not be tempted and can not suffer a crucifixion... oops.


Salvation comes NOT from the resurrection... Jesus, John and the disciples long BEFORE that were forgiving sin and welcoming people into the Kingdom of God / Heaven.
There was no physical resurrection... dead bodies do not reanimate. END OF STORY. Memories resurrect. We can resurrect memories. That's it. Ideas, thoughts, dreams, wisdom, teachings... NOT bodies.

Iskander

I like your posts, kcdad. They are like oases in a monotonous wasteland

aa5874

You always ignore the information provided in the NT and then make up your own story or only accept parts of the story.

Did not Peter begin to SINK? YES or NO?

Peter did begin to SINK. JESUS did NOT.

Matthew 14.29-30
What nonsense?

In fiction stories, OR mythical fables Supernatural beings CREATED HEAVEN AND EARTH. See JOHN 1 for one of those creation events by Jesus.

Homer's Achilles fought in the TROJAN WAR and was MORTALLY wounded when an arrow pierced his heel.

Supernatural Beings have been described with the ability to walk, talk, suffer, die and RESURRECT.

....And how will the HJ RESURRECT?

Why do you always reject what is in the NT, it is the source for Jesus. You must NOT guess. Just repeat EXACTLY what you see.

In the NT, it is there for everyone to see that in the Pauline Epistle that a writer claimed without the resurrection their would be no salvation.

1Cor 15:17Romans 10:9 - In the post-ascension period, salvation was obtained with A belief that Jesus was raised from the dead.


Yes. That's it. Jesus was just an idea, a thought, a dream, wisdom, teachings....not about a real human body.

You don't need a real human being with a real mother and father, friends, associates, and relatives,real human disciples to claim Jesus was raised from the dead in the first place when it would be discovered that his resurrection was fiction.

You simply need to make up a story about Jesus with fictitious characters well away from Judea and backdate the story.

An HJ was not needed to claim Jesus was raised from the dead.

An HJ could not resurrect, the disciples of Jesus would have to LITERALLY die for their own LIES.

THE HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

Jeffrey Gibson

This is rank eisegesis. Just as you did when you previously told us that Lk. 1:44 spoke of a baby leaping into Mary's womb [see here], you have woefully misread what Jn 1 is intent to say.

The "events" described in Jn 1:1-18 are NOT ascribed to Jesus but to the λόγος. Nor does John 1 say that the λόγος him/itself created anything, let alone heaven and earth. It speaks, just as Wisdom 7 does of Lady Wisdom, and the Rabbis of the Torah, of the λόγος as an instrument of creation ( πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ [ἕν ὃ γέγονεν]).

And as to the ancients regarding only supernatural beings as those who create (or were instrumental in bringing about) the kosmos, you might want to check your claim -- which smacks in its lack of being well informed of the one you made sometime ago about kings never being regarded as exorcists (see here) -- against what is asserted about Augustus in the Priene Inscription.

Jeffrey

aa5874

What in the world are you talking about?

Just look at John 1. It is extremely clear that in John 1 that the author believed or intended to be believed that Jesus existed as God and was before anything was created and was indeed the creator. Jesus was the WORD of GOD.

THE HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

JESUS was before anything was made and without him nothing was made. ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM.

kcdad

Thanks. I truly appreciate it... but none of my thoughts are original or unique...

kcdad

Began to sink? So he wasn't flesh for awhile and then became flesh and that's what made him sink????

Yours.
It is a great story, isn't it? Why again, was it his heel that was vulnerable?

Di Achilles resurrect, too? Do you know the difference between reanimate and resurrect?
Every time you think of him.

I don't reject it, I critically analyze it... and the "it" is many different documents by many different authors over many different decades and centuries...

Yes, an author did claim that... so?
Other authors claimed differently.
Nonsense. That is ONE belief. One of many held by many different followers of Jesus. Did those Jesus "saved" before he died not really get saved?

So what was everyone excited about... everyone meaning the authors of the gospels and epistles, Jewish and Roman history and everyone who has studied that "mythical" life for the past 2000 years????


Well it would be rather meaningless to have deity die and raise himself from the dead... that is rather pointless, don't you think?

kcdad

When is the first mention of Jesus in John's Gospel? Verse 17. The only other reference before that is to John the Baptizer. It appears the author was using John the Baptizers' appeal to sell his Gospel. (Maybe THAT is why it is called The Gospel according to John.)
18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Jesus isn't God, according to John, but has "seen" him. What do you think he meant by saying that Jesus was at God's side? (ON God's side, maybe?) God certainly doesn't have sides... that would make him finite and limited.