Freethought & Rationalism Archive

andrewcriddle · 04-06-2006, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjramsey

Price glosses over the problem that Smith pointed out, which is that Osiris is in the realm of the dead because by the internal logic of the Egyptian myth, he is considered dead. He is resurrected long enough to beget Horus, but then dies again. He makes the best of this postmortem state by reigning in this realm, but he is still stuck there. This is far different than the stories of Jesus resurrection, where the internal logic of them has Jesus be alive. Note, too, that Jesus' purported resurrection isn't temporary.

The Egyptian description of Osiris as the 'Great Weary One' in the realm of the dead is very different from resurrection as normally understood.

FWIW most of those scholars who think Smith goes too far in his scepticism about dying and rising gods fully agree with him about Osiris.

Andrew Criddle

Biff the unclean · 04-06-2006, 02:09 PM

Tovarij, you might want to ask yourself why the holiday coming up is named after the Goddess of the dawn, Easter, and is on the day she brought Adonis back to life, while you are at sunrise services

Biff the unclean · 04-06-2006, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Apollonius of Tyana is somewhat later than Paul (he probably died c 98 CE)

Philostratus' account of the life of Apollonius (the source of most of what is claimed about him) is early 3rd century much later than the gospels.

Andrew Criddle

That's true. But it's also true that Apollonius was supposed to be 100 yrs old when he died, so he was not later than Paul. In fact he was brought before Nero during the same crack down that Paul was. Add to that that he was an actual run of the mill historic character

countjulian · 04-06-2006, 02:21 PM

I've posted it before, but I suppose I'll have to post it again

Quote:

The Greek god Perseus, born of the virgin Danae and Zeus in a shower of gold:

Perseus, the son of Jove [Zeus] and her whom, in her prison, Juppiter’s [Zeus’] golden shower made fertile. — Metamorphoses 4.697

The Greek god Heracles (known to you under his Roman name, Hercules), who died in agony, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven:

Heracles, whom she had by Zeus…the poison of the hydra began to corrode his skin…and [he] tore off the tunic, which clung to his body, so that his flesh was torn away with it. In such a sad plight he was carried on shipboard to Trachis… [Heracles] proceeded to Mount Oeta, in the Trachinian territory, and there constructed a pyre, mounted it, and gave orders to kindle it. When no one would do so, Poeas, passing by to look for his flocks, set a light to it. On him Hercules bestowed his bow. While the pyre was burning, it is said that a cloud passed under Hercules and with a peal of thunder wafted him up to heaven. Thereafter he obtained immortality-- Apollodorus, 'The Library,' 11; IV, 8-VII, 7

The Greek god Asclepius, who made the blind see, raised men from the dead, died, and was resurrected:

"Asclepius was the son of Apollo [a god] and Coronis [a mortal woman]...he healed many sick whose lives had been despaired of, and... he brought back to life many who had died."—Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History, 4.7.1.1- 2

When Hippolytus was killed,...Asclepius raised him from the dead."—Pausanias, Corinth, Description of Greece, 1.27.5

Hermon of Thasus. His blindness was cured by Asclepius.— Inscriptiones Graecae, 4.1.121 - 122, Stele 2.22

"The youth [Asklepios] blasted by ancestral bolts [of Zeus] soars from earth…Phoebus [Apollon], you whined. He is a god; smile at your father, who, for your sake, undoes his prohibitions [and grants Asklepios life]-- Ovid, Fasti 6.735

…Hercules [Herakles], of Castor and Pollux [the Dioskouroi], of Aesculapius [Asklepios] ... And these benefactors were duly deemed divine, as being both supremely good and immortal, because their souls survived and enjoyed eternal life.—Cicero, Cicero, De Natura Deorum 2.24

The salvation god Mithra, who spilled eternal blood to save humanity, and left his followers with a sacred Eucharist:

You [Mithra] have saved us by the shedding of eternal blood.—Inscription, Santa Prisca Mithraeum in Rome

This rite [communion] the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For they set forth bread and a cup of water with certain incantations in their ceremonies of initiation—Justin Martyr, First Apology 68

The Egyptian god Osiris, who died, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven, where he will judge the living and the dead, forever and ever:

[the first examination]
They [the Gods of the Underworld] say, "Come forward.
They say, "Who are you,"
They say, "What is your name?"
"I am the he who is equipped under the flowers, the-dweller-in-the-moringa Osiris is my name."—Egyptian book of the Dead

the rites celebrated by night agree with the accounts of the dismemberment of Osiris and his resurrection and regenesis—Plutarch, Isis and Osiris 364

Isis, who resurrected Osiris and with him guarantees salvation to all who except Osiris as savior:

The keys of hell and the guarantee of salvation were in the hands of the goddess, and the initiation ceremony itself a kind of voluntary death and salvation through divine grace.—
Apuleius, Metamorphosis, Book 11, 21

And [the followers of Isis & Osiris said], "Be of good cheer, O initiates, for the god is saved, and we shall have salvation— Firmicus Maternus, The Error of Pagan Religions, 22.1

The Greek god Dionysus, who turned water to wine, did miracles, died, and was resurrected:

One woman [bacchant]
struck her thyrsus against a rock and a fountain
of cool water came bubbling up. Another drove
her fennel in the ground, and where it struck the earth,
at the touch of god [Dionysus], a spring of wine poured out….— Euripides, The Bacchae, 707- 712

the fierce resentment of implacable Hera, the Titanes cunningly smeared their round faces with disguising chalk, and while he contemplated his changeling countenance reflected in a mirror they destroyed him with an infernal knife. There where his limbs had been cut piecemeal by the Titan steel, the end of his life was the beginning of a new life-- Nonnus, Dionysiaca 6.155

The devils, accordingly, when they heard these prophetic words, said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and ...having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven--Justin Martyr, First Apology, 54

countjulian · 04-06-2006, 02:29 PM

Quote:

also sees Hercules and Asclepius as dying and rising gods, yet in both of these cases, their bodies are burnt up (Herc's by a funeral pyre, Asclepius by thunderbolt) and it's their spirits that become gods.

That's not true, read my post. Apollodorus says that Herc's body, while the pyre was still burning, was "wafted up to heaven."

countjulian · 04-06-2006, 02:44 PM

Quote:

One problem I see with these parallels is that aside from the brute fact of having a personage resurrect, they don't have much in common with the Christian story. Not only are the details are vastly different, but the themes are as well. We also have a real shortage of actual dying and rising here. The only god in the above examples who could be said to die and permanently rise is Ishtar. Osiris dies, rises, and dies again. Tammuz rises and dies, rises and dies, rises and dies, ad infinitum. Price, in his "Christ a Fiction" article, also sees Hercules and Asclepius as dying and rising gods, yet in both of these cases, their bodies are burnt up (Herc's by a funeral pyre, Asclepius by thunderbolt) and it's their spirits that become gods. Another problem is that there are much clearer precursors to the Christian idea of resurrection in Judaism. The main difference between the early Christianity and second-temple Judaism here is that Christianity has one man, Jesus, resurrect a little before the general resurrection at the end of the age. So am I supposed to think that the Christians got the idea of a general resurrection from the Jews, but drew the particulars of Jesus' resurrection from separate pagan sources that only vaguely resemble the Christian story?

But that's the problem with the critics of the borrowing theory. They want it all or nothing. We know that the Aesclepius cult and the cult of Heracles engaged in some type of borrwing, but no one demands that their deaths and, we'll call it "apotheosoi" must be exactly alike or almost identical for their to have been borrowing.

Skeptical · 04-06-2006, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

I wonder if this can be documented from ancient sources? (Pardon me, but it's exactly the sort of thing that gets repeated without ever being checked).

Remember that 25 Dec. is not the Solstice. Julian indeed explains why the later date is celebrated; because the farmers can see the actual change by that point.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

According to the Wikipedia entry (not a definitive source I know), Dec 25th was the Winter Solstice on the Julian Calendar. I don't have definitive source that shows a Pagan holiday, but Pagans generally celebrated on these sorts of days and according to the Catholic encyclopedia, Tertullian and Iraneus did not include Christmas on their list of feasts, so it would not seem to have been celebrated among the early Christian fathers.

I think a reasonable interpretation is that Dec 25th was chosen because of a pre-existing holiday, it's what I've seen on fairly reputable Internet sites but I don't have a Pagan sourcebook that says so.

Skeptical · 04-06-2006, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Apollonius of Tyana is somewhat later than Paul (he probably died c 98 CE)

Philostratus' account of the life of Apollonius (the source of most of what is claimed about him) is early 3rd century much later than the gospels.

Andrew Criddle

I stand corrected, I should have googled the life dates before posting instead of going from memory. I thought Appollonius was first century BCE, not CE. My err.

However, his birth date is around 2 CE, so he would have been slightly older than Jesus who was probably born closer to 6 CE. (I consider Luke's date of around 6 CE to be more likely than Matthews clearly legendary Herod story)

Philostratus wrote in the 3rd century, but his non-extant sources were 1st century, including sources from Appollonius' own hand and his disciple Damis.

Keep in mind that we have nothing close to complete copies of the gospels until the 3rd century. We only have small fragments that date to the first and second. So the sources of the stories about Appollonius are roughly contemporaneous with the estimated date of the gospel construction.

jjramsey · 04-06-2006, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

According to Paul, they already have resurrected bodies if they are in heaven.

You seem to be confusing the kingdom of God with Heaven. Paul indicates in 1 Cor. 15:52 that the resurrection of everyone will happen at "the last trumpet," when the kingdom of God comes in power.

Roger Pearse · 04-07-2006, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptical

According to the Wikipedia entry (not a definitive source I know), Dec 25th was the Winter Solstice on the Julian Calendar.

You see? We need some facts here.

Quote:

I don't have definitive source that shows a Pagan holiday, but Pagans generally celebrated on these sorts of days ...

It's not impossible; but how do we *know*, is my question.

Quote:

and according to the Catholic encyclopedia, Tertullian and Iraneus did not include Christmas on their list of feasts, so it would not seem to have been celebrated among the early Christian fathers.

Agreed.

Quote:

I think a reasonable interpretation is that Dec 25th was chosen because of a pre-existing holiday, it's what I've seen on fairly reputable Internet sites but I don't have a Pagan sourcebook that says so.

In the absence of a citation that exists that it *was* so celebrated, I really don't feel we should guess.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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04-06-2006, 02:09 PM	#22
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Tovarij, you might want to ask yourself why the holiday coming up is named after the Goddess of the dawn, Easter, and is on the day she brought Adonis back to life, while you are at sunrise services

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