MCalavera

Random was me by the way. A shame she did as I expected from her - ad hominem and evasive tactics.

Dave31

Instead of telling us what you don't believe how about telling us what you DO believe? It seems hypocritical in my view for you to constantly attack others for putting their cards on the table while you never show your own.

I'm guessing that your comment probably didn't get passed through due to the fact that it is way off topic. That blog has nothing to do with Pygmies. There are other blogs of hers that would be a more appropriate for that discussion. You might give that a try.

Stringbean

And what way did you expect her to respond? Just curious....

GakuseiDon

Hi Random. What Dave31 doesn't know is that you and I are both Toto.

Yes, that's why I've never posted on her forum before, and I don't plan to again. Not without her promise to actually address questions without adhoms and evasion.

GakuseiDon

I believe that God doesn't care what we believe regarding Him. And if God doesn't care, why should I.

The thing is, it IS relevant to her blog post, as I explain below. You keep saying she is raising points about Pygmies so that they can be explored, but as soon as I try to explore them, by QUOTING her, you say it is a smear campaign.

You can't have it both ways. Either her ideas are worth exploring or they aren't. Which do YOU prefer, Dave31?

Let me show you the relevance to Quetzalcoatl. I'll start by quoting Acharya S from "The Christ Conspiracy":

As has been seen, it is virtually impossible to determine which nation is the progenitor of western culture and, therefore, the Judeo-Christian tradition, and we are left to ponder the idea of another source, such as the Pygmies, who claim to have been a global culture many thousands of years ago. (Page 391)

And, quoting Jackson:

Hallet's Pygmy friends told him that in the distant past they developed a highly technical and advanced type of material culture and that they built boats and traveled widely around the world... There may be a lot of truth in these traditions, for Pygmy fossils have been found in all parts of the world...

The Pygmies believed in a father-God who was murdered, and a Virgin Mother, who gave birth to a Savior-God Son, who in turn avenged the death of this father. These later on became the Osiris, Isis and Horus of Egypt. The Pygmy Christ was born of a virgin, died for the salvation of his people, arose from the dead, and finally ascended to heaven. (Page 388)

Now, note the links that Stringbean has provided above, about Pygmies being found in large numbers throughout the USA.

Are you with me so far? Let's recap:

1. Pygmies claim to have had an ancient advanced global civilization
2. Pygmies believed in a Pygmy Christ born of a Pygmy Virgin
3. Pygmy remains found around the world, including in the Americas.

Okay, next, Acharya S writes (my emphasis):

In any serious investigation of this subject, we must be able to discern between the "gods" and the "sky people" mentioned by the ancients. As noted, the enlightened ancients knew the "gods" were the planets, representing astrotheology. The sky people were a different matter apparently. Some of them may have been "aliens" in the off world sense, but other legends hold that at least some of these sky people were the remnants of one of the advanced global civilizations destroyed by cataclysm. The legends further say that such advanced people appeared around the world to reestablish civilization after the various cataclysms.

So, to recap:
1. Legends hold that the "Sky People" are a remnant of an advanced global civilization remnant.
2. Legends hold that they appeared around the world reestablishing civilization.
3. The topic of "Sky People" warrants serious investigation.

Next, in the link I gave on the last page, Acharya S writes:

... we are in concurrence with the "ancient advanced civilization" theory ("Atlantis") that would allow for one or more centralized civilizations to have spread throughout the world during a very remote period in protohistory, thus taking with it the well-developed Mythos and Ritual, which would then mutate into the various forms found around the globe.

If she no longer is in concurrence with that belief, please let me know the reason why she changed her mind.

Now, finally on to her points about Quetzalcoatl in her blog post. She writes (my emphasis):

In Christ Con, I included the fact that mainstream scholarship does not allow for contact between the "Old" and "New" Worlds, but I suggested that the presence of the "mythos" or mythical archetype in Mexico centuries before "first contact" would serve as an indication that there was pre-Columbian contact...

In both books, I quoted and cited the abundant scholarship reflecting what the conquistadors/Jesuits themselves had recounted, common knowledge among modern comparative religion and Mesoamerican scholars...

Naturally, uninformed harpies have glommed onto this logically reproduced material in an effort to heckle and malign me and my sources. Unlike my critics, apparently, I do not pretend to have all the answers, but I felt it was important to raise this issue of various motifs found commonly not only in the Old but also in the New World. Since I'm not interested in mindless censorship and intellectual sloth based on religious bigotry and ignorance, I continue to explore how this phenomenon has come to be and to raise this issue of the Mesoamerican correspondences to Christianity...

One of the reasons, I have suggested repeatedly, is because these mythical motifs represent astronomical and natural phenomena observable globally, but some of the intricate details may serve as evidence of some type of post-Beringian and pre-Columbian contact between the Old and New Worlds

You have to see why I am curious in getting Acharya S's view on this.

IF the Pygmies had beliefs in a Virgin birth of the Pygmy Christ, AND they travelled around the world in the distant past, AND their remains can be found everywhere, then: Isn't it possible that Pygmies are behind the Virgin Birth story of Quetzalcoatl?

If you want to say no, then that's fine. If you want to say it's possible, then that's fine as well. But I have at least quoted Acharya S at every point, and it IS relevant to her blog post, as I have quoted her above.

So if you want to use your usual evasion tactics, that's fine also. But unless I have majorly misrepresented her at any point (please tell me precisely where I have!) then I'm hoping you will be interested in working through the implications of the above.

Stringbean

Well Pliny and Euseibus were aware of Pygmy races:

http://www.theoi.com/Phylos/Pygmaioi.html

While the above does not prove that Pygmies were an ancient race it does prove that even church father Euseibus and Pliny were aware of them.

http://books.google.com/books?id=p7d...legend&f=false

GakuseiDon

Yes, but do you think my questions to Acharya S are valid ones, and do have a connection to Quetzalcoatl? She writes (my bold):

"However it got there, there can be no doubt as to the tremendous similarity between the Mexican religion and Catholicism." In both books, I quoted and cited the abundant scholarship reflecting what the conquistadors/Jesuits themselves had recounted, common knowledge among modern comparative religion and Mesoamerican scholars. Indeed, these correspondences were so commonly recognized that many natives reportedly converted to Christianity with relatively little effort because of the similarities between their religion and that of the Christians.

Now, note her points about Pygmies possibly having an ancient advanced global civilization and her suggestions that the Pygmies:

(1) believed in a Pygmy Christ born of a Pygmy Virgin
(2) travelled around the world
(3) that motifs like the Virgin birth around the world are suggestive of an ancient advanced global civilization that spread those motifs.

Do you think it is reasonable asking her whether she believes the stories about Quetzalcoatl being born of a virgin, etc, were influenced by Pygmies?

Wouldn't you like to see her ideas/suggestions about this specific connection, especially given the data you have of Pygmies in the Americas?

Toto

I know this is not true because there is no way I would spend the amount of time on this subject that you have.

GakuseiDon

Haha! It would also make you a misogynist and an apologist, neither of which I guess you get charged with a lot.

Do you think that I am correct in suggesting that there is a link between Pygmies and Mexican beliefs, assuming Acharya S is correct?

Stringbean

Yeah they are.

Would be interesting. But, I have spent several hours online researching this and can find no mention of any ancient Pygmy civilization, a virgin birth or anything else. Not to say its not there maybe my search terms are wrong.