Diogenes the Cynic

I think a good case can be made that Mark used Josephus (and I've said that before), but that doesn't mean that the author wasn't using Josephus because there was no information or oral tradition available to him regarding the crucifixion. "Everybody ran like hell and that's the last anybody saw of him" doesn't make a good ending.

If Mark used Josephus that would shove the gospels all back to the 2nd Century, of course.

Grog

what oral tradition would that be? What is left in the passion narrative? IF the hypothesis that the author of gMark used Josephus is true, then that would have ramifications for an early passion narrative, like Crossan's cross story. If the structure comes from Josephus, the themes from the OT, then wht is left of oral tradition? Sure, there could be an oral tradition here (referring specifically to the PN), but where is the evidence for it? This is the one "historical fact" that HJ proponents are most confident of: that jesus of nazareth was crucufied under pilate. Yet it looks to me that even this "fact" COULD be derived from an entirely unrelated story. Does that necessarily mean tht the crucufixion is fiction? No, but It makes it less likely to be true.

aa5874

The author did not write "Everybody ran like hell and that's the last anybody saw of him" and you cannot presume that would be the ending if he did NOT use Josephus.

The ABUNDANCE of evidence supports the claim that gMark used Josephus for his Jesus story.

Now, how in the world did Paul meet Peter, James and John BEFORE the Jesus story was even written???

We know there was NO Messianic ruler named Jesus based on Philo, Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius from 15-115 CE.

Who was the Jesus of Paul?? The Pauline Jesus has NO known history.

The author of gMark used Josephus.

What source did Paul use for his Jesus???

The interpolated gMark.

jdl

Maybe I think Inception didn't have a good ending because we didn't hear the coin fall over. What an unsatisfying ending! What oral tradition do you think it was based on?

Joseph

Diogenes the Cynic

None, like I said.
Nothing. No historicity is necessary to the Passions for there to have been a crucifixion. A "re-created" passion that the author imagined he could divine through inspiration from the Scripture and/or Josephus are completely in keeping with an author who knew nothing other than that Jesus had been crucified and everybody ran. Note that I'm not trying to argue strongly for this, just saying it would not be inconsistent with a completely abandoned cross and no information at all, but the bare claim of a crucifixion under Pilate. A fabricated passion is not evidence of a fabricated crucifixion because we would not expect to see an accurate account of an event which was not witnessed by anyone who cared or was accessible for interviews.

Diogenes the Cynic

How is it that two people have now interpreted me saying "...because there was no oral tradition..." as an assertion that there was an oral tradition? I'm saying there probably was not - was NOT - an oral tradition regarding the crucifixion other than the per se claim that "he was crucified."

Grog

I think, perhaps, I lost track of the right path due to a multiplicity of negatives in your original comment.

jdl

Like Grog said: too many negatives.

Joseph

aa5874

Where do you get your un-evidenced AD HOC speculation from?? You seem to always have a solution that requires imagination without evidence.

We have stories in the Gospels and we have stories in Josephus and once they appear to be similar then it can be logically deduced that they were derived from Josephus.

It is the ACTUAL stories in the Gospels and the ACTUAL stories in Josephus that are being analysed NOT what you think the authors might have written.

We have got to move to the NEXT stage now that it is reasonable to claim gMark was written at least at the end of the 1st century.

The Pauline letters just do NOT synchronise with the Gospels.

When did the people of the Roman Empire believe that a resurrected character Born of the Seed of David, a Jew, was raised from the dead FOR their Sins??

The Pauline Gospel does NOT make sense BEFORE or After the Fall of the Temple.

Romans 10:9 KJV Paul makes NO sense. A Pharisee DREAMS a Jew is resurrected and claims the resurrected Jew is LORD and that even the Emperor of Rome should bow to the name of his resurrected Jew???

When did this happen??? Which Emperor allowed Paul to preach his DREAMS of the resurrected Jew???

Paul admitted that there were over 500 DREAMERS before him!!!! See 1 Cor.15.

Dreamers were probably a DIME a Dozen.

Paul was the last DREAMER of the resurrected obscure apocalyptic Jew???

Paul did NOT live in the real world. His history was DREAMT up.

andrewcriddle

IMO use of Josephus by Mark is unlikely.

However since we are discussing possible use of the Jewish Wars this would not require a date in the 2nd century. (Use of the published version of Antiquities would require a 2nd century date.

Andrew Criddle