Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rlogan · 02-20-2013, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

You know what rlogan? I'm not interested in doing what you ask because you have been too lazy to address anything specifically. What are you trying to accomplish other than whining? Why don't you do something a bit more mature -- a bit closer to what spin did -- and actually address the inconsistencies you find in my OP?

I want to extend my deepest apologies to the membership for my childish whining and laziness.

I had no idea what power I posessed, keeping TedM from studying the sources he is using for his argument - and hearing from the people he cherishes so deeply.

I have every confidence that this apology will spur him to action.

jakejonesiv · 02-20-2013, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

All this, salvation by blood only is totally foreign to Judaism. It has more to do with the bloody Tauroctony than the scape goat.The Mythaic priests were "washed in the blood" of the bull, and the Mithraites ate a sacred meal, which Justin identified as a demon inspired counterfeit of the Eucharist. But Judaism totally opposed the consuming of blood.

Hi Jake

I think you are confusing the Tauroctony, the central myth of Mithraism, with the Taurobolium, the bloody baptism of the priests of Cybele.

Andrew Criddle

Clauss states that some initiates of the cult “had undergone the taurobolium, that is, had undergone a ritual in which a bull was sacrificed over a pit containing the initiand; through the blood, he was reborn for eternity” http://tinyurl.com/asuj4q6
CLAUSS, M. (2000), The Roman Cult of Mithras. The God and His Mysteries, Edinburgh, Edinburgh U.
P. Page 31

Jake

jakejonesiv · 02-20-2013, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

i've written about this on and off for the last ten years. there are numerous parallels. but i guess you could start with something Detering asked me to write seven years ago

http://www.radikalkritik.de/Huller_Peregrin.htm

I can refine this basic identification. Peregrinus is clearly Ignatius but Ignatius is a title not a name and Polycarp is the fiery one who matches Peregrinus's obsessive interest for a fiery death. The figure of Herod ties Peregrinus and Polycarp too.

Stephan,

Was it you that came up with that Polycarp wrote the Luke, Acts, and the Pastorals as a trilogy? I can agree with that.

stephan huller · 02-20-2013, 05:37 PM

I've said that before but I can't keep an opinion straight on anything related to the gospels. I just don't know enough. That's why I might seem so obsessive about Marcion. It's my one, Oprah 'things I know for sure' moment of clarity. At least for now ...

stephan huller · 02-20-2013, 05:51 PM

Clement of Alexandria for instance (Strom, 4.16, 17) condemns both the disparagement of martyrdom and the suicidal passion for martyrdom as prevailing in his own day. Against the latter he speaks in the strongest terms against the latter (ibid 4.10). This certainly sounds like a criticism of Polycarp:

Quote:

wishes us neither to be the authors nor abettors of any evil to any one, either to ourselves or the persecutor and murderer. For He, in a way, bids us take care of ourselves. But he who disobeys is rash and foolhardy. If he who kills a man of God sins against God, he also who presents himself before the judgment-seat becomes guilty of his death. And such is also the case with him who does not avoid persecution, but out of daring presents himself for capture. Such a one, as far as in him lies, becomes an accomplice in the crime of the persecutor. And if he also uses provocation, he is wholly guilty, challenging the wild beast. And similarly, if he afford any cause for conflict or punishment, or retribution or enmity, he gives occasion for persecution.

aa5874 · 02-20-2013, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I have always wondered if self-sacrifice can really be classified as a 'sacrifice.' Isn't it more of a suicide? I think the reason why you might have such a difficult time seeing it Ted is that you emphasize Jesus's humanity. If Jesus was originally held to be God it is difficult to get around the idea of humanity overcoming God to kill him. Therefore it is quite reasonable to assume that the suicide interpretation was developed somewhere quite early...

The short gMark is not about a suicide. We have the story.

On three separate occasions the Jesus character claimed he would be KILLED by men.

See Mark 8, Mark 9 and Mark 10.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

..We see the line crossed in Lucian's depiction of Polycarp (= Peregrinus). What Christianity later held up as a 'martyrdom' was really a para-suicidal fixation. One wonders if the same thing was at work with respect to God. Take for instance the Philonic interpretation of 'created in his image.' Philo takes this to pertain to Adam Kadmion (= the world) rather than the Adam made of the earth. To this end, the symbol of God being destroyed on the Cross is at once a sign of the end of the world, the apocalyptic interest of Christianity generally being thought to at the core of the nascent religion.

There is no evidence at all that Lucian's Peregrinus is Polycarp.

There is no evidence that Peregrinus was martyred in Smyrna.

It is claimed that Polycarp was bishop of Smyrna.

See http://newadvent.org/fathers/0102.htm

stephan huller · 02-20-2013, 05:59 PM

Quote:

The short gMark is not about a suicide. We have the story.

But if he is God, how come mere mortals are able to overcome him?

stephan huller · 02-20-2013, 06:03 PM

Quote:

There is no evidence that Peregrinus was martyred in Smyrna.

It is claimed that Polycarp was bishop of Smyrna.

But what do we really know about Polycarp? The Moscow manuscript of the martyrdom hints that Irenaeus wrote or corrected the text from Rome about an event that happened in Asia Minor. That seems hardly convincing. Irenaeus may have wanted to remove Polycarp from his original association with Peregrinus hence the move of locales. Like Peregrinus, Polycarp is a stranger. Roger Purvis has many similar ideas to my own http://vridar.wordpress.com/2011/07/...in-the-series/

aa5874 · 02-20-2013, 06:04 PM

Quote:

The short gMark is not about a suicide. We have the story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

[
But if he is God, how come mere mortals are able to overcome him?

But if he is a God how come he can commit suicide??

stephan huller · 02-20-2013, 06:07 PM

But those made in his image (= the martyrs) provoked the authorities to kill them. Why not God himself?

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02-20-2013, 05:37 PM	#104
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I've said that before but I can't keep an opinion straight on anything related to the gospels. I just don't know enough. That's why I might seem so obsessive about Marcion. It's my one, Oprah 'things I know for sure' moment of clarity. At least for now ...

02-20-2013, 06:07 PM	#110
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But those made in his image (= the martyrs) provoked the authorities to kill them. Why not God himself?

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