Jimmy Higgins

From the perspective that this absolute nobody would be given the death penalty.

dog-on

Do you mean realistically, or in relation to the story?

Jimmy Higgins

In the real historical world.

dog-on

Yes, true enough. I, however, don't think that the real historical world is the real intention of the stories.

Jimmy Higgins

I really haven't given the whole Jesus thing much thought. I read through the four major gospels back in College and things didn't exactly lineup, though I concentrated more on his death and the varying degrees of what happened afterwards.

So I'm trying to suss out, presuming Jesus actually existed, was the there a trial, who was trying him, on what basis were the trying him, what was the actual punishment (was he sentenced to hang for a while or to death).

Based on what I learned at the Catholic College I attended, the story of Jesus gets bigger and better as time passes. IE, the first gospel, Jesus wasn't the savior until he returns, by the last gospel, he was the savior at conception. Clearly, it appeared they were waiting for Jesus to show back up, and when he didn't they needed to... repaint Jesus as having more powers and not needing to show back up immediately.

With that known, I'm more interested in the actual alleged trial, of which there is apparently no actual real world historical information. It lacks evidence of ever happening just like the exodus.

semiopen

We just had a discussion on this in the Christ Hanging from a Tree thread.

It seems to me this could be a Jewish punishment, it's not clear.

It also seems to me that he violated enough Jewish laws to get whacked if the right people were pissed off enough.

Reasons for not pursuing the Jewish thing further is apparently that the gospels themselves give the Romans a lot of responsibility, and that the Romans wouldn't have allowed the Jews to kill someone without their approval. Depending on how convincing the above two things are, it is a taboo subject which would be avoided even if it had some merit.

sotto voce

Why was Jesus crucified? There are two accepted answers to this question, based on biblical evidence. According to the Bible, the final cause of the crucifixion was God (Jesus), the primary instrumental cause was Satan (thereby defeating himself), the secondary instrumental cause was the Sanhedrin (aided and abetted by a fickle Jerusalem crowd), the efficient cause was the Roman Prefecture. The answers must take all of these agents into account.

The local cause of Jesus' crucifixion was due to his opposition to a ruling elite, combined with credibility. Jesus did not on any occasion incite disobedience, on either religious or civil grounds. He has been called a rebel or revolutionary, but the only justification for that must come from those who are effectively rebels. He supported obedience of both the Roman occupiers, who, by the absolute, uncompromising terms of the original settlement of Israel, were outrageously misplaced; and of the entirely unofficial Pharisees and Sadducees etc., who nevertheless sat in 'the seat of Moses'. Jesus intended that both the Roman occupation and the Sanhedrin were soon to be irrelevancies, the whole dispensation of the establishment of Israel since Moses soon to be discarded in the divine will, except as history, so political or military opposition was of no value.

The cause of his death was his recognition that the immediate ruling elite, who had gained the favour of Rome, was systemically hypocritical. It was not so much that they had compromised with Rome, it was that they had compromised the whole intention of Jehovah in establishing Israel as a witness to his precepts. The Sanhedrin, self-appointed, without a trace of tradition within recorded Scripture, was counterfeit because it corrupted those precepts. The problem for the Sanhedrin was not so much possible claims for Messiah-hood, though this exacerbated their dilemma. It was that everyone believed Jesus when he said that the ruling religious elite had no genuine connexion with the revered founders of the nation, Abraham and Moses. They believed him because the Sanhedrin could not find it in the Scriptures, that they claimed validated themselves, to actually validate themselves. So Jesus left them no alternative but to resign, or remove him. This they were unable to do by themselves (although the follower Stephen was stoned out of pure anger soon thereafter) and had to threaten the legal administration they recognised with the disobedience that they accused Jesus of.

Or try to remove him. Of course, the NT records that they could not keep the good man down. The following of Jesus resurrected grew; and neither could that be kept down. (Not, as extra-biblical history records, until the Romans realised that their own corruption stood in the way of this following; eventually it was extinguished, and for a thousand years.)


That's the first of the two answers. Of course, the biblical perspective was not really to inform that the small state of Israel was corrupt, at a particular time; it was intended to reveal that there is atonement for the sins of every soul, past, present and future.

aa5874

Your suggestion is baseless and cannot be found in any sources of antiquity. Jesus, Satan and God are Mythological.

First of all you have NOT even established that Jesus did exist as an actual human being and have NOT established that Jesus as DESCRIBED in the very Gospels could have lived as the Son of a Holy Ghost and be ACTUALLY Crucified.

Now, in the Gospels, Jesus was considered a God and the EARLIEST Myth Fable, gMark, had NOTHING whatsoever to do with Universal Salvation but it was AFTER the Short-ending gMark that the Myth Fable was changed to claim that Myth Jesus--Divine Jesus--was crucified because of GOD'S LOVE.

In Sinaiticus gMark Jesus MERELY claimed he would be killed and be resurrected AFTER Three days--NOTHING whatsoever about Salvation or Sacrifice.

Mark It was in the Later gJohn that the story was CHANGED. All of a sudden, by MAGIC, gJohn's Jesus was crucified because of God's LOVE and the crucifixion of Jesus was the Greatest Love.

John 15:13 KJVJohn 3:16 KJV Nowhere can such statements be found any where in Sinaiticus gMark or even Interpolated gMark. SALVATION by the Crucifixion of Jesus was an INVENTION.

Now, when one consults the writings of Philo and Josephus it is BLATANTLY shown that the Jews were the Only Nation of People on the face of the earth that did NOT worship men as Gods and would RATHER have their NECKS CHOPPED OFF.

In the supposed time of Jesus, the JEWS offered their NECKS to be CHOPPED off when Pilate attempted to place Effigies of Tiberius in the Temple of the very SUPPOSED FATHER of Jesus.

Antiquities of the Jews 18 Where was the supposed Jesus when the JEWS offered Pilate THEIR NECKS???

Where was the supposed Jesus when the Jews OPPOSED Pilate for SIX DAYS WHEN he attempted to Violate the Laws of the supposed FATHER of Jesus???

The NT is NOT credible and do NOT reflect historical accounts during the time of Pilate.

The Jesus story is Blatant Fiction so there was NO crucifixion. The very fact that Pilate found NO fault with Jesus yet still allowed a supposed innocent man to be crucified is NOT Plausible.

Based on Josephus, Pilate would have had a Perfect opportunity and a legitimate reason to have some Jews EXECUTED when some gave False evidence.

outhouse

false

MrMacSon

Suicide?

The sin of suicide as atonement for sin???
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