Freethought & Rationalism Archive

kennethamy · 10-11-2007, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiploc

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennethamy

Yes, I agree. In one sense of the term "fact" a fact is a truth. However, in a different sense of the term, "fact", a fact is what explains why a true statement is true. After all, there must be some explanation for why a true statement is true, and a false statement is false. It is not an accident that some statements are true, and others are false, is it? A true statement is a true statement because it has a relation (which is sometimes called, "correspondence") with something independent of the statement, namely a "fact" (or some say, "state of affairs") And, a false statement is a false statement because it fails to have with a fact. That is, there is no such fact for the statement to correspond with. So, in one sense of "fact", a fact is an explanatory entity, just as electrons or genes are explanatory entities, which we posit to explain some phenomenon. In the present case, the phenomenon of some statements being true, and others being false.

But, as I said, this is in one sense of the word "fact". In a different sense, you are right. A fact is just a truth.

I understand. And there are places where it is appropriate to discuss that---and this thread is one of them. What I hate is people interrupting threads on other topics to lecture people, telling them that they said "truth" when they should have said "fact." It is legitmate to treat them as synonyms in most cases.

crc

The word "bank" is synonym of "financial institution" in one of its meanings. But, in another o its meanings it is synonymous with "the side of a river". So, when I say that I am going to the bank, do you think that should be made clear?

If someone were to say that a statement is true when it corresponds with a truth, don't you think it would be useful for me to tell him, "I think you mean 'fact' not 'truth'"?

I

Wiploc · 10-11-2007, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennethamy

The word "bank" is synonym of "financial institution" in one of its meanings. But, in another o its meanings it is synonymous with "the side of a river". So, when I say that I am going to the bank, do you think that should be made clear?

My objection is that when two people are talking about fishing on the bank, some third party often jumps into tell them they should say, "shore," rather than, "bank," because otherwise somebody will think they are refering to a federal depositary.

Quote:

If someone were to say that a statement is true when it corresponds with a truth, don't you think it would be useful for me to tell him, "I think you mean 'fact' not 'truth'"?

Good example. Yes, that's the perfect time to jump in and give him that nuance so that he can make himself clear.

crc

[quote]

jules? · 10-14-2007, 04:39 PM

I am suprised that no one has picked up on the 'fact' that facts do change. New dating techniques change the facts. New data or evidence changes facts on a regular basis. Truth on the other hand is far more flexible. What is true to one person can be different to someone else. For instance didn't some Greek say that warm water will feel cool to someone inside but for someone coming in from the cold it will feel hot. In the wider world there is a truth of exactly what happened 2,000 years ago in the 'Middle East' the problem is we just don't have all the facts and the one we do have are not that solid. Which means you can have vague facts! what ever next?

kennethamy · 10-14-2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jules?

I am suprised that no one has picked up on the 'fact' that facts do change. New dating techniques change the facts. New data or evidence changes facts on a regular basis. Truth on the other hand is far more flexible. What is true to one person can be different to someone else. For instance didn't some Greek say that warm water will feel cool to someone inside but for someone coming in from the cold it will feel hot. In the wider world there is a truth of exactly what happened 2,000 years ago in the 'Middle East' the problem is we just don't have all the facts and the one we do have are not that solid. Which means you can have vague facts! what ever next?

If it was raining here yesterday, but it is not raining here today, that does not mean that the fact that it was raining here yesterday changed. It is still a fact that it was raining here yesterday, even if it is not raining here today. The facts do not change, but there may be a change in the facts. Then there is a difference between what the facts are, and whether we know what the facts are. The facts are what they are, but, naturally, we may not know what the facts are.

andrewpkyap · 10-14-2007, 06:50 PM

It is a fact that everyone sees with their natural eyes on earth that the sun moves around the earth but that is not the truth, the sun does not move around the earth.

kennethamy · 10-15-2007, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewpkyap

It is a fact that everyone sees with their natural eyes on earth that the sun moves around the earth but that is not the truth, the sun does not move around the earth.

Let's not mix things up.

It is both a fact and a truth that it appears to everyone that the Sun move around the Earth.

And, it is not a fact, since it is false, that the Sun moves around the Earth, and therefore it is also false that anyone sees the Sun move around the Earth.

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10-14-2007, 04:39 PM	#23
jules? Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: mind the time rift, cardiff, wales Posts: 645	I am suprised that no one has picked up on the 'fact' that facts do change. New dating techniques change the facts. New data or evidence changes facts on a regular basis. Truth on the other hand is far more flexible. What is true to one person can be different to someone else. For instance didn't some Greek say that warm water will feel cool to someone inside but for someone coming in from the cold it will feel hot. In the wider world there is a truth of exactly what happened 2,000 years ago in the 'Middle East' the problem is we just don't have all the facts and the one we do have are not that solid. Which means you can have vague facts! what ever next?

10-14-2007, 06:50 PM	#25
andrewpkyap Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 621	It is a fact that everyone sees with their natural eyes on earth that the sun moves around the earth but that is not the truth, the sun does not move around the earth.

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