Ben C Smith

Hi, Steven.

Joe can get away with this debating trick (as you charmingly dub it) because, based on past discussions, he already knows that I regard the longer ending as spurious. The term forgery I will readily grant is too strong a term. I think the longer ending was a remedy for the loss of an original ending after 16.8.

I have my own take on the longer ending, in rudimentary form, posted on my site.

Thanks.

Ben.

jakejonesiv

Hi guys,

Vork is right in this thread. In GMark, most of the narrative is over the heads of the characters in the story, and is directed to the reader/audience. This is why the disciples seem so stupid in GMark; much of what is stated they never hear!

A little review is in order. All narratives have minimally:
1. A narrator
2. A story with characters within the story
3. An audience or reader

I will use the terms audience and reader somewhat interchangable. In the author's day, reading aloud to others was probably a common practice.

In GMark, a great deal of communication goes on directly between the narrator and the reader/audience completely bypassing the story characters except for Jesus. (As we shall see, Jesus and the narrator can hardly be distinguished).

In the baptism of Jesus in Mark 1:9-11, when the heavenly voice speaks, it addresses Jesus directly in the second person. Most commentators correctly identify that this is a private revelation to Jesus, which Matthew changes to a public announcement by using the third person. But what often escapes comment is that someone else hears the voice from heaven, the reader of the story.

Thus even at this early stage, the narrator, Jesus, and the reader all have significant knowledge that is hidden from the characters, i.e. the disciples. In fact, this begins even in Mark 1:1. Jesus is entitled the “Son of God� in most manuscripts. This is blatantly for the reader to the exclusion of the characters.

Take another example; the mocking of Christ in Mark 15:31-32. At the story level the mockers are calling Jesus the Christ, the King of Israel. The dramatic irony is that only the reader understands the narrator’s conviction that the words are true. This is hidden from the characters in the story.

Who watches and prays with Jesus in Gethsemane? The disciples are sleeping, and after Jesus’ arrest, there is no opportunity to tell them. It is only the reader who is aware of the scene.

Frequently the characters in a scene show no uptake on the words of Jesus. It is as if an actor in a play has turn away from his fellow actors and addressed the audience directly.

The narrator and Jesus share the same voice. In the “Little Apocalypse� of Mark chapter 13, Jesus is purportedly addressing the disciples. In the midst of the words of Jesus, suddenly the narrator drops the “mask� of Jesus and addresses the reader unmistakably and directly.

"When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.� Mark 13:14 NIV. All pretense of philological-historical reporting is dropped. We are reading the rhetoric of narrative discourse. This should warn us not to naively accept the narrative world of Mark as the real world. Caution is required lest we fall into the referential fallacy.

Thus we realize in Mark 13 that while Jesus is purportedly speaking to the disciples, the “you� to which the discourse is really directed is the audience concerning events of their own day. This is reinforced at the end of chapter 13. “What I say to you, I say to all: 'Watch!' ".
What is ostensibly said to the four disciples is really aimed at “all,� the audience of GMark. The disciples are little more than props.

Now we can begin to understand the utter stupidity of the disciples in the gospel of Mark. Even when the disciples are said to witness unforgettable astounding events, in just a few verses it is as if they had never seen it.

There are two feeding miracles, the feeding of the five thousand (Mark 6:30-44) and the feeding of the four thousand (Mark 8:1-10). Despite having seen Jesus perform such a miracle before, the disciples say, “How can anyone feed such a crowd here in the dessert.� (Mark 8:4). It is as if the previous feeding miracle had never happened for the disciples. They know nothing of it, but the reader does! Likewise, the several predictions of Jesus death receive no lasting uptake by the disciples; did they ever really hear it?

We find the “doubled story� technique used repeatedly in Mark; the twin sea stories of Mark chapter 4 and chapter 6; the welcoming of children in Mark 9:33-37 and 10:13-16. In all these cases the utter stupidity of the disciples is incomprehensible if we are reading Mark at the story level. It is only at the narrator to reader level that we see the truth; the reader knows more than the characters (i.e. the disciples) and that is precisely the point; to compel a response from the reader.

Jesus seems to act at a different level than the characters in the story. Even though they may be portrayed in the same scene, the interaction between them seems to be illusory. From the story level, such a Jesus to the disciples would seem down right "docetic." :rolling: (Indeed he is described as such: a phantom bent on his own inscrutable mission heedless of the disciples. Mark 6:48-50).

As the story proceeds, the distance between the disciples and Jesus becomes greater and greater, until at the end he is deserted by them all. At the same time, the reader is compelled to identify more and more closely with Jesus until at the end, only the reader alone is left to witness. At the end the women at the tomb fled, and “they said nothing to anyone.� Jesus is completely abandoned. (Yes, Mark 16:8 is the end of the gospel).

Only the reader is left to tell the tale.

Much of this post is based on “Let the Reader Understand� by Robert M. Fowler.

Jake Jones IV

Ben C Smith

I agree. Mark has what appears to be a private revelation to Jesus. He signals this for us with his pronouns: He saw the holy spirit, you (singular) are my beloved son.

I agree. In fact, the most important characters in the story (besides Jesus himself) are not even on the scene for this exchange.

I agree. Mark is careful to shuttle Jesus off on his own and put the disciples asleep while Jesus is uttering his intense prayer.

I agree. He signals this for us with pronouns: Tell us, Jesus said to them, let no one mislead you (plural). He also makes certain to keep the disciples on the scene this time, presumably awake.

I agree.

I agree. The discourse audience is meant to include readers of Mark. But it looks like while you are including the readers of Mark you might be simultaneously excluding the disciples themselves. If that is the case, then I disagree, since Mark has gone out of his way to include them (unlike the baptism, the Gethsemane scene, and the mocking); this is not a matter of either one or the other; it can be (and in fact is) both.

What is reinforced is the double audience I just mentioned; it is both the disciples (what I say to you) and the readers (I say to all).

Are you saying that within the narrative the disciples are supposed to have completely forgotten about the first feeding, as if it never happened at all for them? If not, then I do not understand what you are trying to say; but, if so, Mark 8.18-20 directly contradicts you. The feedings are not information reserved for the reader only; the disciples do remember both of them.

Ben.

jakejonesiv

The disciples never see these things as characters within the GMark story. It matters not a whit to them. The audience has seen such things independantly of Mark's narrative. Again, the disciples are props for the narrator to speak directly to the audience. As we shall see, the story level is subsumed by the rhetoric level.

Yes, they have in fact forgotten, or they could not have asked the question of Mark 8:4. In Mark 8:18-20, they remember only under direct questioning by Jesus. At the discourse level, such analepses are devices to remind the reader of details of earlier parts of the narrative.

Ben, I know this is tough conceptually at first. We are so used to reading Mark through the lens of accumulated Christian tradition that it is hard not to import meaning from other contexts. We are also used to reading GMark as a historical narrative rather than rhetorical discourse.

The the narrator intrudes into the gospel much more than is generally realized by answering the implicit questions of the reader. This is often seen in Mark's use of gar (for) to offer explanatory remarks to the story. Without the implicit reader's question, the remarks take on the aspect of awkward tardy afterthoughts. If they were part of the story, the information would have naturally been conveyed beforehand.

Story: "Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea:"
Reader: "Why were they casting nets?"
Narrator discourse: "gar (for) they were fishers." Mark 1:16.

Story: "And straightway the young girl arose, and walked;"
Reader: "How old was she?"
Narrator discourse:"gar (for) she was of the age of twelve years." Mark 5:42

Story: "And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?"
Reader: "Why couldn't they roll it away themselves?"
Story continues: "And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away:"
Narrator discourse:"gar (for) for it was very great.". Mark 16:3-4.

Notably, this occurs at the very end of the extant gospel.

Story: "And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre;"
Reader: "Why did they flee?"
Narrator discourse:"gar (for) for they trembled and were amazed:"
Story: "neither said they any thing to any man;"
Reader: "Why didn't they tell?"
Narrator discourse:"gar (for) for they were afraid".

Much of this post is based on “Let the Reader Understand� by Robert M. Fowler. I have barely scratched the surface of reader response criticism

Jake Jones IV

Ben C Smith

I am not certain what things you are referring to. If you are referring to the Gethsemane scene and the others, I have already agreed with you. If you are referring to the Olivet discourse, Mark plainly tells us that the disciples were the original audience.

Are you referring to the predictions of the discourse or to the very words of the discourse qua discourse?

Temporarily forgotten, perhaps. But it sounded like you were saying that, so far as the disciples as characters were concerned, it was the same as if the first feeding had never even happened, that the first feeding was information that the reader of Mark receives, but not the disciples. Mark 8.18-20 is direct evidence against such a notion.

You speak of it as if it were hypnosis, and I have really lost your point in all this. How do the two feedings demonstrate that Mark does not have two audiences (originally the disciples, by extension later Christians too) in mind on Olivet?

You are speaking to a person who once held to a light form of mythicism and abandoned it.

On Olivet, I have read Mark as Mark and only as Mark. Those pronouns are in the text of Mark; look them up. I did not import them from Matthew or Luke or from some other context. That double warning at the end of the chapter (I say to you and to all) is in Mark. I did not import that from some other context.

I agree with you completely on the interjected Marcan γαÏ? phrases; I have had occasion to study them for other reasons. And I have no idea how they in any way mitigate what Mark plainly tells us about the audience on Olivet.

Ben.

JoeWallack

JW:
Okay, so Jewdie Mind Tricks only work on weak minded fools.

10: (NIV)
38 "You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said. "Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?"
39 "We can," they answered. Jesus said to them, "You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, 40but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared."

JW:
14: (NIV)
23 "Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it.
24"This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them."

The reference is to Exodus 24 (NIV) [Emphasis Mine Saith the Lord]

"4... He got up early the next morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain and set up twelve stone pillars representing the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 Then he sent young Israelite men, and they offered burnt offerings and sacrificed young bulls as fellowship offerings [a] to the LORD. 6 Moses took half of the blood and put it in bowls, and the other half he sprinkled on the altar. 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, "We will do everything the LORD has said; we will obey."

8 Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, "This is the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words."

9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, [b] clear as the sky itself. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

12 The LORD said to Moses, "Come up to me on the mountain and stay here, and I will give you the tablets of stone, with the law and commands I have written for their instruction."

13 Then Moses set out with Joshua his aide, and Moses went up on the mountain of God. 14 He said to the elders, "Wait here for us until we come back to you. Aaron and Hur are with you, and anyone involved in a dispute can go to them."

15 When Moses went up on the mountain, the cloud covered it, 16 and the glory of the LORD settled on Mount Sinai. For six days the cloud covered the mountain, and on the seventh day the LORD called to Moses from within the cloud. 17 To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain. 18 Then Moses entered the cloud as he went on up the mountain. And he stayed on the mountain forty days and forty nights."


JW:
X-Uh-Jesus:

"built an altar" - So Jesus is the new temple. "Destroy this Temple"

"twelve stone pillars" - "Stone" (chuckle), this Author's very good.

"sacrificed young bulls as fellowship offerings" - Let me point out here that there is a big difference between Sacrificing a Bull and Sacrificing a Man. One lays on the Ground all day chewing on grass and staring at Cows while the other lays on the Sofa all day chewing on chips and staring at Sports.

"blood and put it in bowls" - Cup

"sprinkled on the altar" - My guess is Vork is right that Jesus was Sacrificed in the Temple. It explains so much:

1) The parallel with Exodus 24.

2) The parallel with the Passover sacrifice in the Temple.

3) The Catholic tradition that the Cross, sorry, Stake was constructed in the Temple.

4) The convenience of The Jews, Pilate and Joseph of A to Save time right before Passover.

5) Having the Torn Temple Veil be close by.

6) Having the Substitutionary location, Golgothica, be unknown to Christianity.

"8 Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, "This is the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words."

So the Exodus parallel isn't just any parallel, it's The Covenant story in the Jewish Bible. Sure sounds like "Mark's" Jesus is making a similiar/same Covenant here through the drinking of wine which symbolizes Blood. And the wine is consumed by Followers symbolizing Acceptance of The Covenant. Sounds like a Baptism to me.

"they ate and drank" - Last Supper

"Moses went up on the mountain, the cloud covered it, 16 and the glory of the LORD settled on Mount Sinai. For six days the cloud covered the mountain, and on the seventh day the LORD called to Moses from within the cloud. 17 To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain. 18 Then Moses entered the cloud as he went on up the mountain." - Sounds like a...oh, what's the Word...Transfiguration?:

9; (NIV)
2 "After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.
5 Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." 6(He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)
7 Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!"
8 Suddenly, when they looked around, they no longer saw anyone with them except Jesus."

JW:
By The Way, when I used the word "Forged" for ChristianiTee's addition of "New" here I agree that it is a somewhat inappropriate description. But it's the worst word I could think of.

So, "Mark's" JB predicted Jesus would Baptize with (the) holy spirit? So, How else would "Mark's" Jesus Baptize someone, anyone, Buehler?

When "Mark's" Jesus sent The Disciples out these were the Instructions:

6: (NIV)
7 "Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over evil[b] spirits.
8 These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. 9Wear sandals but not an extra tunic. 10Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them."
12 They went out and preached that people should repent. 13They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them."

No mention of Baptism.

The only mention of Baptism by "Mark's" Jesus is the Forged:

16: (NIV)
15 "He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned"

Also explains How "Matthew" and "Luke", following "Mark", have completely different Baptism instructions from Jesus, because "Mark" didn't have any (other than 14:23):

Matthew 28: (NIV)
19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

Another Forgery Commander LaForge and:

Luke 24: (NIV)
49 "I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."


JW:
No, I think for "Mark's" Jesus the time for water Baptism had passed water:

1) Jesus never instructed his Disciples to water Baptize.

2) Jesus Baptized his Disciples with his Cup symbolizing his blood which paralleled The Covenant in The Jewish Bible.

3) Jesus explained that he would not drink anymore (wine) until the Kingdom of Heaven indicating he would be out of the picture until he was in the picture.

4) Jesus indicated there would be no Sign for his Generation.

5) Jesus instructed to Watch because he could be coming in the next Pericope.

So, according to "Mark", just have Faith, sip some wine, munch on Holy Waitfers and Watch. Baptism is by Wine, symbolizing Jesus' blood, and not water. No wonder the French went Catholic so quick.



Joseph

MAGIC, n.
An art of converting superstition into coin. There are other arts serving the same high purpose, but the discreet lexicographer does not name them.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Ben C Smith

Surely you are not criticizing me for not taking you up on every digression that strikes your fancy.

I found your last post difficult to follow (well, more difficult to follow). Your Mexican bar fantasy has reminded me of José Cuervo; perhaps some of that would help me to understand. I make a killer tequila sunrise....

Ben.

JoeWallack

J:
Then J said to him, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?" You are the Thief Clooney trying to steal meaning from the Context. The criminal, drunk, biker, Mexican bar is Internet Infidels and the criminal, drunk, biker, Mexicans are Infidels. Vork and Jones are the Vampires, not subject to the Natural Laws of Textual Criticism.

Then J told him in Private,

10: (NIV)
38 "You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said. "Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?"
39 "We can," they answered. Jesus said to them, "You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, 40but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared."


Here's How we can consider "be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with" as referring to drinking from Jesus' Cup at the Last Supper:

1) The first part of the prediction (You will drink the cup I drink) is Literally fulfilled at the Last Supper.

2) "the baptism I am baptized with" is future and I think you agree refers to the Crucifixion. "be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with" is our main disagreement. I see the fulfillment as Symbolic for the Significance of drinking from the Cup. Jesus explains at the Last Supper via reference to Exodus 24:8 that his crucified blood will create a blood covenant symbolized by wine and drinking this symbolic blood is an Acceptance of his Covenant. This understanding has the advantage that fulfillment of the two connected predictions, Drink from the Cup and be Baptized happen at the Same time.

3) This understanding has no serious Conflict with the rest of "Mark".

Your understanding is that "be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with" is a prediction of the Martyrdom of The Disciples. You have the following Conflicts with this Understanding:

1) The Disciples' generally Negative Actions per "Mark".

2) The Disciples' general Lack of Faith per "Mark".

3) Lack of Narrative predicting a Change.

4) Explicit Prediction by Jesus that The Disciples' Failure during The Arrest would Fulfill Prophecy.

5) Explicit Narrative showing The Disciples' Specific Failure (after being warned to Watch) to "Drink from the Cup" Jesus Drank from.



J

WINE, n.
Fermented grape-juice known to the Women's Christian Union as "liquor," sometimes as "rum." Wine, madam, is God's next best gift to man.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
It's the Same "Cup". The Eucharistic Cup of 14:23 is the Physical representation of the Spiritual Cup Jesus took in 14:36. 14:36 is the Blood Sacrifice and 14:23 is the Baptismal Acceptance of that Sacrifice. Jesus had to show them the Eucharist before he died. Always seems to work That Way. It's very diffiCult to explain things After you die.

Works quite well with my understanding that Jesus' prediction that the Cup the Disciples would drink from would be 14:23 and not 14:36. I invite you to consider the Possibility that it's because it was also The Author's understanding.

Continuing...

13: (NIV)
1 "As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!"
2 "Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

JW:
Before The Key Discourse in all of "Mark" The Author has to get one more Dig in on The Disciples. As always, they mistakenly notice what's on the Outside. And, as always, Jesus will Transfer what's on the Outside to the Inside (Destroy the Temple but Build the Spirit). The Opposite of The Storm stories where the Outside was Calmed but the Inside (of The Disciples) was Stormed ("They were Amazed/Terrified").

Now we are going to go through The Discourse but we are going to rate Who The Discourse is Likely addressing as Follows:

1) Only Readers

2) Mainly Readers

3) Readers and The Disciples

4) Mainly Disciples

5) Only Disciples

While we're doing this let's consider Julian's conundrum here regarding The Disciples. To the extent Jesus is referring to The Disciples here, is it a Prediction of the Success of The Disciples or just the Trials and Tribulations of The Disciples?

Fasten your seatbelts, yea, it could get Rocky:

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4"Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?"
5 Jesus said to them:

5) "asked him privately" "Jesus said to them"

"Watch out that no one deceives you. 6Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many."

1) How could Imposters deceive The Disciples? This illustrates the problem with Proof-Texting here. Taking a Verse that can only apply to one group and using it to assume that no other Verse can only apply to another group. This is the problem of a Dual audience speech that is acting as supposed History and Current advice at the same time. You have to look at All the Details to determine Who is being Primarily addressed, if anyone.

7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

3)

9 You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them.

2) He's going to show that The Disciples did not stand before Govenors (Pilate) or the council (Sanhedrin) as a Negative example so presumably this is for The Readers.

10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

2) "arrested and brought to trial" - see previous.

12 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

3)

14 "When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation'[a]standing where it[b] does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 17How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. 20If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ[c]!' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it.

1) "let the reader understand" - Explicit identification of The Audience for the most important Sign here. Also, "the abomination that causes desolation'[a]standing where it[b] does not belong" likely refers to The Roman standard where the Temple used to be in about 70 CE. Kind of far off for a 20ish Disciple in 30 CE who would have lived most of his adult life between Jesus' supposed discourse here and the Key sign. Much more applicable to a Reader in about 70 CE, especially when you consider the strong Imminent message of "Mark's" Jesus.

22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. 23So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

1) Same reason as above. You would think The Disciples would be able to tell the difference between Real Jesus as Fake Jesus. More of a problem for someone who never knew Real Jesus.

24"But in those days, following that distress,
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[d]
26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

3)

28 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

3)

32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33Be on guard! Be alert[f]! You do not know when that time will come. 34It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' "

2) The Imminence is much more Applicable to the current Reader and "Mark" shows The Disciples as Failing to keep Watch. Also note that "What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!'" reduces the weight of the Only 5) - Directed only to The Disciples

Let's Add up The Numbers:

1) Only Readers 3

2) Mainly Readers 3

3) Readers and The Disciples 4

4) Mainly Disciples 0

5) Only Disciples 1

Let The Reader Understand these numbers and as applicalbe to this Thread, also note that Jesus never predicts the future success of The Disciples here.



Joseph

"Eschatological" - A combination of prophecy and shit.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:

Continuing...

14: (NIV)
1 "Now the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were only two days away, and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some sly way to arrest Jesus and kill him. 2"But not during the Feast," they said, "or the people may riot."
3 While he was in Bethany, reclining at the table in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, made of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured the perfume on his head.
4 Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, "Why this waste of perfume? 5It could have been sold for more than a year's wages[a] and the money given to the poor." And they rebuked her harshly.
6 "Leave her alone," said Jesus. "Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 7The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me. 8She did what she could. She poured perfume on my body beforehand to prepare for my burial. 9I tell you the truth, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her."

JW:
"Matthew" sez the Negative comments were made by The Disciples and ICC sez "Mark" has a strong Implication that it was The Disciples. "were saying indignantly to one another" and "And they rebuked" are phrases that "Mark" has used for The Disciples. On the other hand, "Mark" doesn't say, "The Disciples" so it could be Evidence that "Mark" was less critical of The Disciples here than "Matthew". I will note though that "Mark's" Jesus makes a Positive memory prediction for an unknown woman while he never makes any such prediction for The Disciples.

So, as Neil Young said right before his classic, "He Was The King", "What do you think Ben?".



Joseph

"I'll never forget good ol what'sherface." - Author unknown

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page