buster

I have a copy of Jesus, Interrupted (or via: amazon.co.uk), by Bart D. Ehrman. It briefly covers the topic of gospel dates.

Ibid., p. 144-145.

• Paul doesn't mention the gospels.
• Therefore Paul was written before the gospels.

He would object, however, if we reused his logic:

• Acts doesn't mention Paul's letters.
• Therefore Acts was written before Paul's letters.

Bart Ehrman is a wonderful textual critic, but he doesn't know how to recognize weak higher-critical arguments. People shouldn't rely on him for this sort of thing.

Ibid., p. 145.
So Mark was written after that. Fair enough. So for the range of 60-70 AD to be the consensus - even of the six scholars that have been cherrypicked - Juststeve will need to show who of these scholars reject the teminus post quem of 70 AD.

Ibid., p. 145.
Maybe Mark wrote right on 70 CE. No reasons proffered. OTOH these unspoken reasons are thought to be robust enough to build a dating scheme upon.

Ibid., p. 145.
This is the kind of comment where one can get an idea of consensus.

stephan huller

Really? I could swear the Marcionites heard him say 'my gospel.' I heard it too now come to think of it.

This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. Romans 2:16

Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, Romans 16:25

stephan huller

And are you sure that the apostle is citing Genesis here (2 Cor 4:6):

ὅτι ὁ θεὸς ὁ εἰπών· ἐκ σκότους φῶς λάμψει, ὃς ἔλαμψεν ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις ἡμῶν πρὸς φωτισμὸν τῆς γνώσεως τῆς δόξης τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν προσώπῳ Χριστοῦ.

I think one could make an equally plausible argument that it represents a variant of the opening words of John

και το φως εν τη σκοτια φαινει και η σκοτια αυτο ου κατελαβεν

stephan huller

The important thing is that I bet my life the Marcionites thought Paul was citing the beginning of THEIR gospel. There were variations in these opening words. Just look at Origen's citation of Heracleon.

stephan huller

Just for good measure I thought I'd include LXX Genesis 1:4b for comparison

καὶ διεχώρισεν ὁ θεὸς ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ φωτὸς καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ σκότους

stephan huller

The LXX is very specific here - 'God DIVIDED between the light and the darkness' or perhaps 'God divided between the light and between the darkness' but the Apostle can't be citing these words when he speaks of light 'shining out' of darkness. These are two completely different concepts. One accepting a coexistence with 'darkness' and worldiness. Another saying that the light - the messiah - will manifest himself in the world or alteratively it is also a reference to the recreation of man according to Christ in baptism but certainly not the original creation of the world.

It is a variant of the opening words of the gospel. As I said, I think everyone has missed this. Marcion would say, checkmate.

stephan huller

This author of a critical commentary on 2 Corinthians acknowledges the difficulties in identifying Genesis 1:4 as the source of the quotation.

http://books.google.com/books?id=WKv...page&q&f=false

He notes that Isaiah 9:1 LXX is closest of all but that again can't be the original context. Rather the gospel writer was channeling Isaiah when he wrote the opening words.

Toto

2 Corinthians 4:6

For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"^[a] made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

[a] Gen 1:3

But Gen 1:3 says only that God said, let there be light.

This is 1 John 1:5. Why would Paul be quoting this letter? And it is not what 2 Cor says - it says that God is light, not that God created light or made his light shine.

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all

.

:huh:

stephan huller

The rabbinic literature is consistent in understanding the term 'light' (nehirah) to mean the messiah. The source of the reference is Daniel 2:22. Speaking of God Daniel declares:

He revealeth the deep and secret things; He knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with Him.

This perhaps the closest concept to what is being described at the beginning of the gospel. The messiah (the Light) is originally 'with God.'

stephan huller

Sorry Toto, I have noted many times how sloppy I am. I corrected the text. The apostle is citing something and it is not Genesis. Remember it isn't necessarily a quote. The King James text doesn't translate it as such:

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ

It's a paraphrase of the opening words of the (Marcionite) gospel