lenrek

We do not reject anything. To reject, is sign of dislike, which is rooted in hatred. And hatred is what Buddhist suppose to cultivate in its eradication. We are told to learn to live in peace with anything that we dislike or like. Being detach from material realm does not mean destroying the material realm.

Actually I gave a very short discription of Buddhism to someone another thread, to save the trouble of asking you guys to read it, I re-post it here:

premjan

gnosticism is a little inverted in its assumptions compared to Buddhism: more like Hinduism or Taoism in that sense. Buddhism is closer to modern existentialism, in my mind.

Secular Elation

I was aware of possible inaccuracies. But the MSN definition was quite close to describing the beliefs of Buddhists that I have encountered before.

Because of the hogwash that I have seen Buddhists speak about.

I'm not certain, but for sake of argument I assume it is at least a close approximation.

That's why I posted this thread--to receive input from learned Zen Buddhists because I know they would have qualms with my rejection of Buddhism.

No, I reached the conclusion to reject Buddhism based on my negative reactions to it from learning about it.

I didn't reject the religion before I learned a little about it. I didn't say, "What is Buddhism? I don't care, I don't know anything about it--I still reject it." Instead, I said, "What is Buddhism? I learned much about it through talking with some of it's followers, and I found them to be bizarre. And then I read this MSN article in order to find what exactly is what that had bothered me before. And I found it."

I don't have a complete and thorough understanding of Buddhism, and you seem to be holding that against me. But, of what I do know about Buddhism, I find it to be absurd, so I will not bother learning more about it and trying it out as a personal belief system.

No, I understand what a lot of Buddhism is. And I find it to be strange.

I don't like Buddhism, and that fact was strengthened even after getting in contact with a few Buddhists. It's not for me. If you don't like that, too bad.

Secular Elation

No, life is not per se depressing. There are certain things in life that may depress someone, but there are also things that will make the person happy. Blanket statements like "life is depressing" are illegitimate.

This is the kind of psuedo-mystical babble used by Buddhists that turns me away.

Worldy pleasure is not everlasting. But no pleasure of any kind is everlasting. And worldy pleasure may be able to be corrupted by greed and hatred--but you don't need Buddhism to overcome that. Buddhism is a strange religious way to convince a person they have overcome the "greed, hatred, and ignorance" that you talk about. But as a normal, sane human being, I don't need any religious insanity to help me fight against the bad things in life. I can overcome it on my own.

premjan

Secular Elation, what is your purpose in making these posts? Just blowing off steam? Or more?

Dylan

I'm just going to post some of my understanding of Buddhism:

The Concept of No Self: Think of the self as a wave in the ocean. The way has distinct properties, but in the end, it is just part of the ocean.

As for pleasure/wordly desire: I don't think Buddhism neccessarily says that pleasure is bad, but it says you must approach it from the correct mindset, to not become attached to it.

The way that I (try) to incorporate Buddhist philosophy into my life is working towards being less attached to things (which, in the end, results in a better emotional state than the happiness of getting what you want, the sadness of not, etc). But, I recognize that I am not at a point in my life where I could renounce worldly pleasures and the like - it would cause me to be more unhappy. It's like living the life of a monk - it's for some people, but not everyone.

This was written at 1;00 am, sorry if it doesn't make sense.

Answerer

Written languages and words can be misleading, I, myself, used to have the wrong ideas about Buddhism as well, the "Void" thing. But I make the effort to learn(and practice) more and in the process, I finally understand and found the root of my misconceptions.

It is easy to point to a language of a text and say: "What the crap is the book talking about?" especially with Zen "nonsensical" and "Bizarre" koans. But in most cases, people forgot that languages and words are just liken to tools that use to crave out sculptures and allow themselves to be distracted by it. Although tools might be important, they are still just tools, it should be sculptures (the essential messages that Buddha wanted to convey) that the people should be concerned about. As a science student, I used to trouble by the mythical story of the Buddha and language used in texts but still it did not stop me from spending most of days trying to figure what "Buddha was trying to tell me".

Besides, I had the same experience with certain quantum physics textbook as well. When I first read my quantum textbook, I actually got the impression that it had to be written by an insane scientist. During my quantum lesson, I also believe that my lecturers(and most of the other quantum scientists) got the science all wrong. Even when some of my friends try to explain to me, I believe them to be brainwashed nutcase. And my belief is based on a simple fact that quantum theory is too bizarre but still I decided to give them (my friends etc) a benefit of a doubt. After doing lots of the quantum-based tutorials and experiments, I had to admit I was wrong and shouldn't too quick to conclude my prejudice against abnormal or bizarre theories or beliefs. Therefore, the irony fact is that certain bizarre theory and beliefs might sometimes turn out to be very accurate if not totally true.

It might be that quantum theory is too abstract that it sounds bizarre when we try to use language to explain it or rather it can also be due to our lack of proper tools. The same reasoning applies to Dharma.

If Dharma is so bizarre, how will it flourished in China and India for so many thousand years without severe attacks and no support from the local philosophers and intellectuals? Why did so many fame philosophers and intellectuals like Nagarjuna, Hsuan Tsang, Bodhidharma etc support those seemingly bizarre theories or "nonsensical rubbish" ? Are they simply religious fanatics or idiotic moron with a lack of common sense? Apparently, they are not. And they are also not the kind of people who simply look at people, events, things or books from their covers and appearances or simply believe in traditions or whatever others have to say. They are the kind of people who gain a large part of their own insight and knowledge from their own investigation, analysis and contemplating.

There are no quick steps to understanding and in fact, you got to do most of the hard works (thinking, analysis, etc) yourself. I think thats all I can say for now but please note that I'm not asking anyone to be a buddhist and I was encouraging people to see way beyond a "normal level".

premjan

I feel there is actually a rather clever insight within Buddhism which is absent in the other religions, which has to do with the concept of Sunya or Nibbana (which I think of as being the same thing). The main cause of unease in a human being is the lack of mental stability afforded by a mutating and changing world. Paradoxically, if you focus on this disorder or entropy and make it into a defining principle, it affords a way to overcome the mental effects of entropy, which I think is the brilliant principle of sunya or void as a uniting principle, instead of God, or some abstract monad, or the Tao, et cetera. It is a clever philosophical trick, IMO. This is what makes Buddhism more of a practical device than the other religions which are generally sentimental in one way or another.

BTW: Just because some Buddhists appear to indulge in mystical claptrap, does not detract in any way from the cleverness of the basic idea, which I think works like a waterproof seal against the demonic elements, if you get my drift.

Secular Elation

No, the purpose of my posts was to respond to the points brought up in the thread. Each post contains my honest, unfiltered response.

I don't mean to say that my rejection of Buddhism is primarily because of some of the mystical-sounding ways in which it is described, although I know I appeared to say so otherwise. While the rhetoric is off-putting, it is specifically the beliefs and practices of Zen Buddhism, at least the form of it that is the subject of this thread, that I find strange and that I cannot accept.

lenrek

It is because there is no everlasting happiness, therefore eventually, one will experience sadness, lamentation, and suffering when that happiness is ceased. Thus, for Buddhist, we never deny nor reject there is happiness in this world, is just that it is not perfect.

It is declared by the Buddha there is a perfect happiness. It is also declared by Him, how one can achieve this perfect happiness. It also declared by Him, that, this is the only perfect happiness, and it is only achievable by spiritual development.

What does spiritual development means in Buddhism?

To perform spiritual development, one need to start by practicing virtue. Virtue is developed by following the precepts. For lay person, the basic precepts are 5, which are:

1) Abstain or refrain from killing.
2) Abstain or refrain from stealing or taking what is not given.
3) Abstain or refrain from sexual misconduct.
4) Abstain or refrain from lying or false speech.
5) Abstain or refrain from intoxicants, which include alcoholic drinks that can lead to addiction and carelesness.

By following these 5 basic precepts, one will reduce or no longer involve bodily action and speech that lead to regret or blame worthy. By maintain himself in these 5 precepts, one develop the mind that less corruptible. This is because this mind is now within the boundary of righteousness.

After achieve this virtue, the Buddhist continue his practice, by involving more intense mental cultivation. Here, Buddhist term it as meditation. Meditation is a exercise or training of the mind. This training is targeted for cultivating wakefulness and mindfulness.

A wakeful mind is developed by achieving focus, concentration, unwearied and clarity. When this is established, the mind is temporary free from unwholesome states of mind. Wholesome and unwholesome states of mind cannot co-exist within a same mind moment, thus, when one develop mental states that is wholesome (focus, concentration, unwearied and clarity), the unwholesome states of mind is temporary retreated and suppress. This development has a specific term known as the development of Jhana in Buddhism.

By establishing the mind in wakefulness, the mind is now obtain an opportunity in development of mindfulness. Mindfulness means, the mind is aware, alert and sharp for knowing whatever that occurring in the mind. In normal activities, though one can be mindful, but since this mindfulness is not supported by establishment of Jhana. Thus, it is not firm and easily distracted by other mental states, which are unwholesome.

With the developed mind that is equip with mindfulness, whenever there arise mental states that is unwholesome, the mind able to immediately recognize it. Once the mind able to recognize the arising of unwholesome states, the mind immediately take action in stopping it to grow.

With the developed mind that is equip with mindfulness, whenever there is a potential in mind that may lead to the arising of unwholesome states, the mind able to immediately recognize it, and take action in stopping this unwholesome potential to manifest.

With the developed mind that is equip with mindfulness, whenever there exist a potential to grow wholesome mental states, the mind able to immediately recognize it. Once the mind recognize this potential, it encourage, promote and support its development. Thus, making one able to arise states of joy and rapture, sympathy and empathy, compassion, kindness, generosity and calm that is not influence by unwholesome states.

With the developed mind that is equip with mindfulness, whenever there arise mental states that is wholesome, the mind able to immediately recognize it. Once the mind able to recognize the arising of the wholesome states, it encourage, promote and support its development. Thus, make one able to experience state of joy and rapture, compassion, kindness, generosity, sympathy and empathy, calm to their fullness and uncorrupted.

Once the development of wakefulness and mindfulness mature and solidify, the person will able to bring this meditation not just in sitting, but also in drinking, eating, walking, sleeping and all other daily activities. In doing so, without the influence of greed, hatred and ignorant, he now practice the 5 precepts with enhancement:

1) Not just abstaining or refraining from killing. He now practice in acts of protecting and saving lives with compassion and kindness that are genuine.

2) Not just abstaining or refraining from stealing or taking what is not given. He now practice in the acts of generosity, sharing and giving that are genuine.

3) Not just abstaining or refraining from sexual misconduct. He now practice in passion, love and kindness towards his partner. In doing so, if there exist sexual union between them, it will no longer be dominated by sexual lust, but as an expression of love.

4) Not just abstaining or refraining from lying or false speech. He now practice in honesty, truthfulness and live with dignity. In doing so, he obtain confidence in his character and also gain confidence from others.

5) Not just abstaining or refrain from intoxication, which include alcoholic drinks that can lead to addiction. He now live in non-intoxication, non-confusion and non-delusion. With the mind continuously remain in clarify, understanding is developed without the interference of ignorant. Such understanding becomes the basis of wisdom that is free from interference of ignorant.

After gaining such achievement, the Buddhist continue his meditation with even greater mindfulness. With greater mindfulness, the mind becomes more sharp in noticing every moment of the mind. This development give room for development of insight. With development of insight to reality. The mind see the arising of mental states. The mind see its conditions of arising of mental states. The mind see the ceasing of mental states. The mind see its conditions for the cessation of the aroused mental states. He see, with clarity, conditions for the arising and the cessation of mental states. He gain the insight into the reality of mental phenomena.

With such insight, he thoroughly understood, that the mind is a conditioned phenomena. Whatever that is conditioned, means it is unstable. It is unstable because any changes to its conditioning will result the disintegration of the conditioned states. Since it is unstable, clinging, grasping, craving and lusting for any mental states will only result in suffering, as the conditions for that clinging, grasping, craving and lusting will never last forever.

With such insight, he thoroughly understood, since all mental phenomena are all conditioned, there is no inner-core in this existence. With the understanding there is no inner-core, the concept of self, soul or I become irrelevant and invalid. Now, he realize, there no doer, there is only process or activity of doing.

With the establishment of such insight, his mind emerge or awaken from all misconception and entanglement. With the mind awaken from all misconception he see the deathless and unconditioned truth or dhamma of Nibbana. With this achievement, he is now successfully enter the stream of Enlightenment. With the successful entering into the stream, he is now destined for Enlightenment.

This is how a Buddhist should practice, that is in accordance with the teaching of The Buddha...