Nonexistent_One

What, exactly, is the purpose of prayer? It is my understanding that God has a perfect plan for the world. God is omnipotent, therefore his plan cannot fail. God created the Universe with perfect knowledge of what was to become of it. Is there room in this plan for human wishes to be granted or withheld?

I'd like to know how theists can be so bold as to say that their pitiful mortal hopes and wishes even stand the chance of being considered by a perfect enigma. Why would a supreme God even consider changing his perfect plan, however small a change, for a mere human? Is one mortal, inherently sinful creature worth the risk of condemning this perfect plan to failure? I always figured it was “Your will, not mine, be done,�? but I suppose that it must be the other way around.

If we assume that God has perfect love, as many theists state, then he must be willing to sacrifice his plan. But to say this is to also say that God is not in control. Some present the argument that God only answers prayers according to his plan. If this is so, then prayer is still meaningless! If your ‘prayer’ fits in with the plan, then it is ‘answered.’ If what you wish is part of the plan already, then of course it is going to present itself in the future; if it’s not, it obviously won’t happen.

‘Prayer’ is a self-defeating concept. Insight, anyone?

~NEO

Evoken

Our Father, who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen.

Crucifiction

That only seems to strengthen the original post. If it's Gods will, he answers the prayer; that is, if it fits into His plan.

Evoken

His plan is for people to ask for forgiveness and to repent of their sins.

WCH

One argument I've heard when I asked the same question years ago is that perhaps God has envisioned many plans, all equally perfect, and is willing to be convinced on which one to go with. Additionally, it's possible that prayer is an important part of God's plan. "At this point, someone had better pray for this to happen, or I ain't doing nothing."

A related note is the question of retroactive prayer. Many theists believe that God exists atemporally, outside of time. As such, he observes all points in time simultaneously, so, really, a prayer after the fact is just as good as one before it. In effect, that would mean that praying in thankfulness after the fact is the same as praying for the thing to happen, and likewise mourning something happening is the same as a prayer to prevent it. Metaphysics get so much more complicated when you apply one belief to others held by the same people.

Vorkosigan

Manifold. Christianity is a system of authority and control. Like all systems of authority and control, it must instantiate itself in the victim even when overt instruments of control are not present -- the system, in other words, must be extant in the victim even when the apparatus of control cannot be. Prayer facilitates the victim's policing of her own mind and thoughts and shaping her Self to the needs of Authority. The victim gets in the habit of repeating complete nonsense, which, if repeated often enough, comes to sound possible, then reasonable, and then unquestionably true. Looking at the particular prayer instanced above.....

Note that first comes the reference to the authority figure, inevitably patriarchical. Then comes the a nonsense statement glorifying this figure, which no one could take seriously if they weren't constantly conditioned to it. So right off the prayer disengages the critical thinking apparatus of the victim while at the same time getting them to repeat the idea that there is a non-existent sky father.

Similar invocations can be found in any facist or communist text. The prayer next has the victim submit to authoritarian power, and inscribe this power on the Self. The purpose of the prayer is to force the victim to alter the Self to accommodate behaviors the Authority finds desirable -- self-policing, and so forth.

The victim again inscribes upon the Self the idea that Authority is the source of everything, including food.

The first half is nonsense, linked to a profound moral belief. Even the victim's noblest ethical ideals must be subordinated to the authority. Even when the victim does good, it is only because the authority permits it. The prayer reinforces in the victim the idea that they are weak, helpless, and hopeless without the Authority.

The victim inscribes the police state on the Self again, promising to abide by the rules authority has devised, even though authority is nowhere present.

Ending, of course, with nonsense that requires the victim to debase their own Self in relation to the Authority.

As you can see, the purpose of prayer is to reduce the sense of autonomous Self, inscribe behaviors on that Self that enable the Self to serve Authority, and to get the victim to short-circuit their own critical thinking apparatus by repeating nonsense until it becomes self-evident.

Vorkosigan

WCH

@Vorko
Nice, I like it a lot. I hope you don't mind, but I've posted a copy of that dissection of the Lord's Prayer on a Christian forum I frequent (I am personal friends with everyone on it; I play the role of village atheist, stirring up controversy so we as a group don't always get things from one perspective) to see what comments any of them had.

Evoken

Well Vorkosigan, Christianity was since it's inneption not intended to be a friendly relationship with Yahweh/Jesus. Jesus is called Lord for a reason and that is of servitude, loyalty and reverence nothing to do with friendship..Jesus is not your buddy as modern fundamentalist would like to make you believe.

So the question comes down to: Do one considers Yahweh/Jesus to be worthy of doing that which is expressed in the Lord's Prayer?

Some people think so and others don't. Not everyone who is a Christian has been brainwashed into it.

Vorkosigan

Not at all. But I doubt you'll get anything like an intelligent reply. If anyone says anything intelligent, post it here.

Vorkosigan

Hmmm.....I know.

Well...no.

Didn't say they were.

Vorkosigan