spin

That's simply massaging the data.

Hell, we've done this to death already. You might check the archives. My best guess was that a French monk was involved. What it's got to do with the matter at hand, who knows?

Frank

Conspicuously absent in your response here is any attempt to interact with the material I posted (that cites experts and modern studies)? This issue has been explored by experts, who did studies on the manuscripts using modern methods, and they found one alteration.

I guess we can either think the interpolator mispelled Christ (as he was copying the entire book), and then erased/corrected his mistake, or he was altering a preexisting document.

I guess this provokes the question of why would an interpolator go through so much trouble to insert a spurious passage into a book? Either we think that our hypothetical interpolator copied the entire book (in order to insert this single passage), or he merely altered a single letter in a single word within a preexisting document. Then we have to wonder why he made a grammatical mistake when describing his god? After all, if the entire passage is spurious, then our interpolator didn't copy the passage, but rather invented it (so we can't say the misspelling was due to the sort of natural oversight we might expect when someone is mechanically copying a huge piece of work). So our highly literate, and religiously devoted copyist, would have to make the mistake from scratch (when referring to his lord and savior, to which he devoted his entire life), if he indeed invented the entire passage.

Furthermore, authenticity of this book is confirmed by simply comparing it to other works by Tacitus. So at minimum we know the bulk of this work was originally authored by Tacitus, and thus we know the manuscript we have is representative of Tacitus' Annals (book XV). So again, we circle back to the aforementioned conjecture. Maybe it was a forgery of a forgery (that seems slightly more plausible I guess)? So the original copyist/interpolator would have to make the same mistake (when referring to his lord and savior) ... okay, this is bullshit (we can speculate all day long, but it's farfetched IMO).

andrewcriddle

By the normal dating of the second medicean the passage must be pre-renaissance.

Andrew Criddle

spin

More conspicuously absent is some reason for needing to interact with this material.

Why the interpolator?? I already offered you a simple explanation: a French scribe in the copying process.

GakuseiDon

He only specifies "all the source material available", without specifying the source material. It's more to impress the mind-blasted mythicist plebs than you.

And so? How have you established that this one sentence contains gruesome details to the order that Tacitus wouldn't use it? Don't you have to establish that first? Or are you just assuming it?

Yes, martyrs are those who suffer for their faith. The definition is "One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles". A Christian crossing the road and getting hit by a bus is not your standard martyrdom story. There is nothing about Christians dying for their faith there.

"Suffering for their faith" is what is important in a martyrdom story. This is nowhere present. Deal with the evidence.

And so? What is wrong with all that? Nero offered spectacles in the gardens where the people were sheltering. You have yet to come to a point. All you are doing is presenting passages as though they offered some conclusion in themselves. So, Nero provided his gardens to shelter the homeless, and then killed people in them. He dressed in public as a charioteer. So what? How long after the fire did Nero start killing Christians? Why couldn't he have started doing that after "everything he tried failed to dispel the belief" that Nero had started the fire?

This is the passage that spin means:

But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace.

Compare the passage with what spin is claiming. Spin, is the interpolator being clever or incompetent here? I can't decide. What do you think?

Me too. I'll leave the uncommitted reader to note that spin has no conclusions here, just throwing up doubts. I've highlighted the passage below in blue, in an extract from Tacitus' Book 15 which can be found here:
http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.11.xv.html

Below is the section containing the references to the fire and to Christians. Note Tacitus' back-and-forth style, ranging over a variety of topics. For the heck of it, I've highlighted one paragraph in purple. I will claim it was inserted by an interpolator who wanted to make Nero look foolish by saying he 'fiddled' while Rome burned. For proof: you can remove it and the narrative would flow quite nicely. And what about the two headed babies, and the calf that was born with its head attached to its leg?

A disaster followed, whether accidental or treacherously contrived by the emperor, is uncertain, as authors have given both accounts, worse, however, and more dreadful than any which have ever happened to this city by the violence of fire. It had its beginning in that part of the circus which adjoins the Palatine and Caelian hills, where, amid the shops containing inflammable wares, the conflagration both broke out and instantly became so fierce and so rapid from the wind that it seized in its grasp the entire length of the circus. For here there were no houses fenced in by solid masonry, or temples surrounded by walls, or any other obstacle to interpose delay. The blaze in its fury ran first through the level portions of the city, then rising to the hills, while it again devastated every place below them, it outstripped all preventive measures; so rapid was the mischief and so completely at its mercy the city, with those narrow winding passages and irregular streets, which characterised old Rome. Added to this were the wailings of terror-stricken women, the feebleness of age, the helpless inexperience of childhood, the crowds who sought to save themselves or others, dragging out the infirm or waiting for them, and by their hurry in the one case, by their delay in the other, aggravating the confusion. Often, while they looked behind them, they were intercepted by flames on their side or in their face. Or if they reached a refuge close at hand, when this too was seized by the fire, they found that, even places, which they had imagined to be remote, were involved in the same calamity. At last, doubting what they should avoid or whither betake themselves, they crowded the streets or flung themselves down in the fields, while some who had lost their all, even their very daily bread, and others out of love for their kinsfolk, whom they had been unable to rescue, perished, though escape was open to them. And no one dared to stop the mischief, because of incessant menaces from a number of persons who forbade the extinguishing of the flames, because again others openly hurled brands, and kept shouting that there was one who gave them authority, either seeking to plunder more freely, or obeying orders.

Nero at this time was at Antium, and did not return to Rome until the fire approached his house, which he had built to connect the palace with the gardens of Maecenas. It could not, however, be stopped from devouring the palace, the house, and everything around it. However, to relieve the people, driven out homeless as they were, he threw open to them the Campus Martius and the public buildings of Agrippa, and even his own gardens, and raised temporary structures to receive the destitute multitude. Supplies of food were brought up from Ostia and the neighbouring towns, and the price of corn was reduced to three sesterces a peck. These acts, though popular, produced no effect, since a rumour had gone forth everywhere that, at the very time when the city was in flames, the emperor appeared on a private stage and sang of the destruction of Troy, comparing present misfortunes with the calamities of antiquity.

At last, after five days, an end was put to the conflagration at the foot of the Esquiline hill, by the destruction of all buildings on a vast space, so that the violence of the fire was met by clear ground and an open sky. But before people had laid aside their fears, the flames returned, with no less fury this second time, and especially in the spacious districts of the city. Consequently, though there was less loss of life, the temples of the gods, and the porticoes which were devoted to enjoyment, fell in a yet more widespread ruin. And to this conflagration there attached the greater infamy because it broke out on the Aemilian property of Tigellinus, and it seemed that Nero was aiming at the glory of founding a new city and calling it by his name. Rome, indeed, is divided into fourteen districts, four of which remained uninjured, three were levelled to the ground, while in the other seven were left only a few shattered, half-burnt relics of houses.

It would not be easy to enter into a computation of the private mansions, the blocks of tenements, and of the temples, which were lost. Those with the oldest ceremonial, as that dedicated by Servius Tullius to Luna, the great altar and shrine raised by the Arcadian Evander to the visibly appearing Hercules, the temple of Jupiter the Stayer, which was vowed by Romulus, Numa's royal palace, and the sanctuary of Vesta, with the tutelary deities of the Roman people, were burnt. So too were the riches acquired by our many victories, various beauties of Greek art, then again the ancient and genuine historical monuments of men of genius, and, notwithstanding the striking splendour of the restored city, old men will remember many things which could not be replaced. Some persons observed that the beginning of this conflagration was on the 19th of July, the day on which the Senones captured and fired Rome. Others have pushed a curious inquiry so far as to reduce the interval between these two conflagrations into equal numbers of years, months, and days.

Nero meanwhile availed himself of his country's desolation, and erected a mansion in which the jewels and gold, long familiar objects, quite vulgarised by our extravagance, were not so marvellous as the fields and lakes, with woods on one side to resemble a wilderness, and, on the other, open spaces and extensive views. The directors and contrivers of the work were Severus and Celer, who had the genius and the audacity to attempt by art even what nature had refused, and to fool away an emperor's resources. They had actually undertaken to sink a navigable canal from the lake Avernus to the mouths of the Tiber along a barren shore or through the face of hills, where one meets with no moisture which could supply water, except the Pomptine marshes. The rest of the country is broken rock and perfectly dry. Even if it could be cut through, the labour would be intolerable, and there would be no adequate result. Nero, however, with his love of the impossible, endeavoured to dig through the nearest hills to Avernus, and there still remain the traces of his disappointed hope.

Of Rome meanwhile, so much as was left unoccupied by his mansion, was not built up, as it had been after its burning by the Gauls, without any regularity or in any fashion, but with rows of streets according to measurement, with broad thoroughfares, with a restriction on the height of houses, with open spaces, and the further addition of colonnades, as a protection to the frontage of the blocks of tenements. These colonnades Nero promised to erect at his own expense, and to hand over the open spaces, when cleared of the debris, to the ground landlords. He also offered rewards proportioned to each person's position and property, and prescribed a period within which they were to obtain them on the completion of so many houses or blocks of building. He fixed on the marshes of Ostia for the reception of the rubbish, and arranged that the ships which had brought up corn by the Tiber, should sail down the river with cargoes of this rubbish. The buildings themselves, to a certain height, were to be solidly constructed, without wooden beams, of stone from Gabii or Alba, that material being impervious to fire. And to provide that the water which individual license had illegally appropriated, might flow in greater abundance in several places for the public use, officers were appointed, and everyone was to have in the open court the means of stopping a fire. Every building, too, was to be enclosed by its own proper wall, not by one common to others. These changes which were liked for their utility, also added beauty to the new city. Some, however, thought that its old arrangement had been more conducive to health, inasmuch as the narrow streets with the elevation of the roofs were not equally penetrated by the sun's heat, while now the open space, unsheltered by any shade, was scorched by a fiercer glow.

Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

Meanwhile Italy was thoroughly exhausted by contributions of money, the provinces were ruined, as also the allied nations and the free states, as they were called. Even the gods fell victims to the plunder; for the temples in Rome were despoiled and the gold carried off, which, for a triumph or a vow, the Roman people in every age had consecrated in their prosperity or their alarm. Throughout Asia and Achaia not only votive gifts, but the images of deities were seized, Acratus and Secundus Carinas having been sent into those provinces. The first was a freedman ready for any wickedness; the latter, as far as speech went, was thoroughly trained in Greek learning, but he had not imbued his heart with sound principles. Seneca, it was said, to avert from himself the obloquy of sacrilege, begged for the seclusion of a remote rural retreat, and, when it was refused, feigning ill health, as though he had a nervous ailment, would not quit his chamber. According to some writers, poison was prepared for him at Nero's command by his own freedman, whose name was Cleonicus. This Seneca avoided through the freedman's disclosure, or his own apprehension, while he used to support life on the very simple diet of wild fruits, with water from a running stream when thirst prompted.

During the same time some gladiators in the town of Praeneste, who attempted to break loose, were put down by a military guard stationed on the spot to watch them, and the people, ever desirous and yet fearful of change, began at once to talk of Spartacus, and of bygone calamities. Soon afterwards, tidings of a naval disaster was received, but not from war, for never had there been so profound a peace. Nero, however, had ordered the fleet to return to Campania on a fixed day, without making any allowance for the dangers of the sea. Consequently the pilots, in spite of the fury of the waves, started from Formiae, and while they were struggling to double the promontory of Misenum, they were dashed by a violent south-west wind on the shores of Cumae, and lost, in all directions, a number of their triremes with some smaller vessels.

At the close of the year people talked much about prodigies, presaging impending evils. Never were lightning flashes more frequent, and a comet too appeared, for which Nero always made propitiation with noble blood. Human and other births with two heads were exposed to public view, or were discovered in those sacrifices in which it is usual to immolate victims in a pregnant condition. And in the district of Placentia, close to the road, a calf was born with its head attached to its leg. Then followed an explanation of the diviners, that another head was preparing for the world, which however would be neither mighty nor hidden, as its growth had been checked in the womb, and it had been born by the wayside.

Silius Nerva and Atticus Vestinus then entered on the consulship, and now a conspiracy was planned, and at once became formidable...

spin

So you can forget him as a tenable source.

Look for any directly equivalent examples in Tacitus of such juicy descriptions of inflictions of pain.

They were chosen for their faith. It is made clear that supposedly they were well-known to the crowds of the time for their "wickedness" and that a huge multitude (multitudo ingens) were arrested--all of which is probable to you. They were put to death because of their faith, "a pernicious superstition".

Don't turn a blind eye.



Either he opened the gardens to the homeless for temporary accommodation or he offered the garden as a venue to light up the night sky with human torches for public spectacle. The first excludes the second.

(The latter is so absurd, given that this was supposedly caused by a rampant fire and that the gardens were occupied by the homeless. Casual fires were lit in the darkness to kill christians while people were living in temporary, meaning flammable, shelters.)

This snip cuts out an important part of the development of the discourse.

You read straight past the subtlety of Tacitus, the conclusion to his aspersions against Nero over the fire, that it didn't matter what he did, for the people still believed "that the conflagration was the result of an order." But you don't seem to give a fuck about what Tacitus was doing in the passage. The whole passage was leading up to a condemnation of Nero for the fire, despite not having any evidence to be able to make an accusation. This is all destroyed by the wanton placement of an irrelevant martyrdom story. Had Tacitus actually written such a story, he wouldn't have placed it where he did, ie after his conclusion, and his conclusion would have been different.

My conclusion was already there. You in your hurry overlooked what was going on.

[T2]38. A disaster followed, whether accidental or treacherously contrived by the emperor, is uncertain, as authors have given both accounts, worse, however, and more dreadful than any which have ever happened to this city by the violence of fire. It had its beginning in that part of the circus which adjoins the Palatine and Caelian hills, where, amid the shops containing inflammable wares, the conflagration both broke out and instantly became so fierce and so rapid from the wind that it seized in its grasp the entire length of the circus. For here there were no houses fenced in by solid masonry, or temples surrounded by walls, or any other obstacle to interpose delay. The blaze in its fury ran first through the level portions of the city, then rising to the hills, while it again devastated every place below them, it outstripped all preventive measures; so rapid was the mischief and so completely at its mercy the city, with those narrow winding passages and irregular streets, which characterised old Rome. Added to this were the wailings of terror-stricken women, the feebleness of age, the helpless inexperience of childhood, the crowds who sought to save themselves or others, dragging out the infirm or waiting for them, and by their hurry in the one case, by their delay in the other, aggravating the confusion. Often, while they looked behind them, they were intercepted by flames on their side or in their face. Or if they reached a refuge close at hand, when this too was seized by the fire, they found that, even places, which they had imagined to be remote, were involved in the same calamity. At last, doubting what they should avoid or whither betake themselves, they crowded the streets or flung themselves down in the fields, while some who had lost their all, even their very daily bread, and others out of love for their kinsfolk, whom they had been unable to rescue, perished, though escape was open to them. And no one dared to stop the mischief, because of incessant menaces from a number of persons who forbade the extinguishing of the flames, because again others openly hurled brands, and kept shouting that there was one who gave them authority, either seeking to plunder more freely, or obeying orders.|Intro to the fire story with his first aspersion against N.||
39. Nero at this time was at Antium, and did not return to Rome until the fire approached his house, which he had built to connect the palace with the gardens of Maecenas. It could not, however, be stopped from devouring the palace, the house, and everything around it. However, to relieve the people, driven out homeless as they were, he threw open to them the Campus Martius and the public buildings of Agrippa, and even his own gardens, and raised temporary structures to receive the destitute multitude. Supplies of food were brought up from Ostia and the neighbouring towns, and the price of corn was reduced to three sesterces a peck. These acts, though popular, produced no effect, since a rumour had gone forth everywhere that, at the very time when the city was in flames, the emperor appeared on a private stage and sang of the destruction of Troy, comparing present misfortunes with the calamities of antiquity.|Attempt to say Nero didn't return until he was about to lose his new house, which would have been obviously too late. T. suggests N. accidentally burnt his own new house down. We see Nero working to deal with the fire and its effects.||
40. At last, after five days, an end was put to the conflagration at the foot of the Esquiline hill, by the destruction of all buildings on a vast space, so that the violence of the fire was met by clear ground and an open sky. But before people had laid aside their fears, the flames returned, with no less fury this second time, and especially in the spacious districts of the city. Consequently, though there was less loss of life, the temples of the gods, and the porticoes which were devoted to enjoyment, fell in a yet more widespread ruin. And to this conflagration there attached the greater infamy because it broke out on the Aemilian property of Tigellinus, and it seemed that Nero was aiming at the glory of founding a new city and calling it by his name. Rome, indeed, is divided into fourteen districts, four of which remained uninjured, three were levelled to the ground, while in the other seven were left only a few shattered, half-burnt relics of houses.|Fire comes to an end, though T. accuses N. of prolonging it for more damage.||
41. It would not be easy to enter into a computation of the private mansions, the blocks of tenements, and of the temples, which were lost. Those with the oldest ceremonial, as that dedicated by Servius Tullius to Luna, the great altar and shrine raised by the Arcadian Evander to the visibly appearing Hercules, the temple of Jupiter the Stator, which was vowed by Romulus, Numa's royal palace, and the sanctuary of Vesta, with the tutelary deities of the Roman people, were burnt. So too were the riches acquired by our many victories, various beauties of Greek art, then again the ancient and genuine historical monuments of men of genius, and, notwithstanding the striking splendour of the restored city, old men will remember many things which could not be replaced. Some persons observed that the beginning of this conflagration was on the 19th of July, the day on which the Senones captured and fired Rome. Others have pushed a curious inquiry so far as to reduce the interval between these two conflagrations into equal numbers of years, months, and days.|Counting the losses.||
{c:cs=2}||
42. Nero meanwhile availed himself of his country's desolation, and erected a mansion in which the jewels and gold, long familiar objects, quite vulgarised by our extravagance, were not so marvellous as the fields and lakes, with woods on one side to resemble a wilderness, and, on the other, open spaces and extensive views. The directors and contrivers of the work were Severus and Celer, who had the genius and the audacity to attempt by art even what nature had refused, and to fool away an emperor's resources. They had actually undertaken to sink a navigable canal from the lake Avernus to the mouths of the Tiber along a barren shore or through the face of hills, where one meets with no moisture which could supply water, except the Pomptine marshes. The rest of the country is broken rock and perfectly dry. Even if it could be cut through, the labour would be intolerable, and there would be no adequate result. Nero, however, with his love of the impossible, endeavoured to dig through the nearest hills to Avernus, and there still remain the traces of his disappointed hope.|The building of Nero's new palace. Attempts at a canal to supply water.||
43. Of Rome meanwhile, so much as was left unoccupied by his mansion, was not built up, as it had been after its burning by the Gauls, without any regularity or in any fashion, but with rows of streets according to measurement, with broad thoroughfares, with a restriction on the height of houses, with open spaces, and the further addition of colonnades, as a protection to the frontage of the blocks of tenements. These colonnades Nero promised to erect at his own expense, and to hand over the open spaces, when cleared of the debris, to the ground landlords. He also offered rewards proportioned to each person's position and property, and prescribed a period within which they were to obtain them on the completion of so many houses or blocks of building. He fixed on the marshes of Ostia for the reception of the rubbish, and arranged that the ships which had brought up corn by the Tiber, should sail down the river with cargoes of this rubbish. The buildings themselves, to a certain height, were to be solidly constructed, without wooden beams, of stone from Gabii or Alba, that material being impervious to fire. And to provide that the water which individual license had illegally appropriated, might flow in greater abundance in several places for the public use, officers were appointed, and everyone was to have in the open court the means of stopping a fire. Every building, too, was to be enclosed by its own proper wall, not by one common to others. These changes which were liked for their utility, also added beauty to the new city. Some, however, thought that its old arrangement had been more conducive to health, inasmuch as the narrow streets with the elevation of the roofs were not equally penetrated by the sun's heat, while now the open space, unsheltered by any shade, was scorched by a fiercer glow.|Grandiose plans for fire prevention and T.'s criticisms.||
{c:cs=2}||
44. Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the temple and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.|Conclusion of the fire narrative, plus the christian deaths.[/T2]
Hopefully, the reader can see that the fire discourse is an integrated narrative which starts with the aspersion that Nero may have lit the fire, tracks the events, while criticizing Nero, and ends the same way it started, with the aspersion ie "that the conflagration was the result of an order."

Paragraphs 42 & 43 deal with events that obviously last a long time, but they are placed earlier in order for Tacitus to close the discourse neatly and for the greatest rhetorical effect.

How many people see the story of the christian deaths as part of this discourse? What do you think of its placement at the end of the discourse? What effect does it have with regard to what Tacitus is doing with the narrative concerning Nero?

GakuseiDon

Moving the burden of proof. We have that one sentence. You need to show that these "juicy descriptions of inflictions of pain" is not typical of Tacitus, and you haven't even tried to do that. You've only given your opinion. Here is the sentence again:

"Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired"

I'll ask again: If Tacitus was writing in his "normal" style, what would you have expected him to have written here?

This is clearly not a typical martyrdom story, and it could easily have been one. That's why it doesn't read like an interpolation. But let's leave it to the uncommitted reader.

State clearly why this was an issue. Was the garden too small to accommodate both activities? Or did they not have the ability to handle burning people near temporary accommodation? WHY does the first exclude the second, and how do you know? What moves this from being just your opinion to something with evidence?

Read where Tacitus has placed that event. He has clearly moved on to what happened after the fire. And that includes fixing the blame on the Christians. Were the temporary structures still in the garden when the Christians were being killed? We don't know, Tacitus doesn't say how long after the fire Nero started killing Christians. But Tacitus is writing about what the Romans did AFTER the fire, and that included punishing the Christians. (I suppose that if I show that the Christian passage fits the context, you will claim that it is a perfect place for an interpolation!) Here is what Tacitus writes, both before and after his passages about the Christians. Here is what he writes BEFORE the Christian passage:

These colonnades Nero promised to erect at his own expense, and to hand over the open spaces, when cleared of the debris, to the ground landlords. He also offered rewards proportioned to each person's position and property, and prescribed a period within which they were to obtain them on the completion of so many houses or blocks of building. He fixed on the marshes of Ostia for the reception of the rubbish, and arranged that the ships which had brought up corn by the Tiber, should sail down the river with cargoes of this rubbish....

Obviously he is writing about what Nero did AFTER the fire, and that includes how Nero handled suspicions that he ordered the fire. "Consequently" Nero starts killing Christians, and Tacitus describes what happened. Then he continues with other events occurring after the fire. I've given the first one or two sentences from the next three paragraphs:

Meanwhile Italy was thoroughly exhausted by contributions of money, the provinces were ruined. Even the gods fell victims to the plunder; for the temples in Rome were despoiled and the gold carried off...

During the same time some gladiators in the town of Praeneste, who attempted to break loose, were put down by a military guard stationed on the spot to watch them, and the people, ever desirous and yet fearful of change, began at once to talk of Spartacus, and of bygone calamities. Soon afterwards, tidings of a naval disaster was received...

At the close of the year people talked much about prodigies, presaging impending evils. Never were lightning flashes more frequent, and a comet too appeared, for which Nero always made propitiation with noble blood. Human and other births with two heads were exposed to public view...

As I said, you are just raising doubts, you don't actually have evidence for anything AFAICS. One could raise doubts about any one of those paragraphs I suppose. It still doesn't make it evidence.

Frank

Of course even a crude reading will make it obvious to anyone that there was a significant span of time between Nero opening up grounds for those who lost their homes (or apartments) in the fire, and the persecution of Christians.

1) Fire happens

2) Nero opens up the “Campus Martius” to the populace (along with his own gardens).

3) Five days go by, the fire reignites.

4) Mansions, tenements, temples, etc. were lost.

5) After the fire Nero erects a new mansion (calculate how much time was required to build a mansion in the ancient world).

5) Rome is largely rebuilt (but much more spaciously), calculate how much time this must have taken.

6) There were restrictions on the height of new buildings.

7) Nero is rewarding people for rapid completion of construction projects.

8) He arranges grain shipments, and repeating, the city is rebuilt (apparently to the displeasure of some, who thought the old arrangement was more conducive to public health). Nero promulgates rigorous zoning ordinances designed to effectively deal with fires (if they should occur again in the future). How much time did all of this require?

9) But all these efforts (and “all the lavished gifts of the emperor”) could not get rid of the rumor that Nero was responsible for the fire.

10) "All the lavished gifts" refers to all of the aforementioned (all of which were relatively huge public projects).

11) So Nero finds a scapegoat (probably the weakest, most vunerable, and least popular group), and executes them in his gardens for public show.

Of course whether or not he was actually guilty of the fire is uncertain (although historians apparently believe there’s good reason to believe he wasn’t). Nevertheless, he had to deal with public perception.

There is NOTHING mutually exclusive about any of this.

I guess you're trying to say that 42 and 43 were placed early in the discourse for rhetorical purposes, but the phrase where Tacitus begins to describe the persecutions clearly abrogates this idea. "All the lavished gifts of the emperor" is referring to the previously mentioned events ... WTF?

What's your other one? That Tacitus never included the gory details? What bullshit. For anyone who's curious, here's a link to the Annals:

http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.html

Pretty easy, start by reading the first one (put the word "blood" in your browsers search box, and see what you get).

hjalti

GakuseiDon, I still don't see a answer from you regarding spin's last point. If I understand him correcrtly then Tacitus is basically saying: "Nothing Nero did got rid of the rumor. So, to get rid of the rumor, he had a lot of Christians killed."

GakuseiDon

Yes. And what is wrong with that? I'll quote from spin's use of Tacitus:

A disaster followed, whether accidental or treacherously contrived by the emperor, is uncertain...

So no-one, including Tacitus, is certain whether Nero was involved.

Later:

But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order.

So, at some point AFTER the fire, despite Nero's gifts and sacrificing to the gods, the people of that time suspected that Nero had ordered the fire. Tacitus continues directly:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace.

This is in a section about what happens AFTER the fire.

So what is the problem exactly?