Johnny Skeptic

If you mean reasonable proof that the plagues occurred as decribed in the Bible, and that they were the reason that pharaoh let Moses and his people go, if you will agree that we judge the story of the ten plagues based upon its own merits without claiming that the story should be trusted because some other parts of the Bible should be trusted, there is not any evidence that you would be able to provide that would convince me, nor would you defend a similar claim from another religious book based soley upon the claim's merit.

Do you not presuppose that something else DID NOT happen? Don't the followers of all religions feel the same way?

Committed Christians and committed skeptics seldom change their minds. I do not expect to change your mind about anything, and you should not expect to change my mind about anything. Just like in presidential elections, both sides here at the Secular Web are mostly trying to influence the undecided crowd. It is my position that the vast majority of the undecided crowd, who have little or any predisposition one way or the other, will not become more likely to become Christians after reading your arguments in this thread. What have you said so far that you believe is likely to convince some people who are undecided?

bfniii

any evidence i may have is not necessarily applicable to you. that's why i asked what would be proof to you. it wasn't a dodge.



i am asking you about yours. why did it take you several hundred posts before you began to discuss them?



and just making that statement isn't good enough for me. can you show how my points are incorrect instead of just dismissing them? why would anyone be convinced by your mere dismissal?



why are we expecting them to have made such documentation? i realize it was done in some cases, but it wasn't in all cases.



i'm not following you here. if you set out to find a skyhook and you don't find one, how can you call your mission a failure?



we haven't established that someone else should have recorded the plagues. we certainly shouldn't expect it from the egyptians. and i have addressed the campsite issue multiple times.



i was asking what you meant by "very rapid". obviously you feel like several decades is very rapid. what makes you think that didn't happen?



the point i was making is that not all people think the evidence shows gradual change over a few hundred years.



since that theory is almost impossible to prove, i don't think it's very reasonable at all at this point. it sounds like sour grapes because it's not based on any scholarship at all. it takes no thought whatsoever to blithely dismiss an account based on an argument from silence especially when the objection can't refute information that corroborates the events and can't erase plausible explanations for the events.



no, they haven't. spin said "sad fact, they had no useful content". that's not a reason. that's crap. you spoke of low standards. well there you have it. why would you think that such a response is convincing at all?



because i have addressed the points and i am reminding people that i have. i can cite the posts. if anyone disagrees, all they have to do is post a response that actually has some substance to it, not just a bunch of personal insults.



why would you bring up subjects i have addressed at length? why not address my responses instead of repeating the original assertion?



there is no such "scholarship". there are some people who have that opinion based on the available information, but their opinions are debatable. it's not fact. if you disagree, prove your point.



if you were held captive and allegedly brutalized by someone, wouldn't you want to divest yourself of every thing that reminded you of that person? the answer is an obvious yes.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to bfniii: Please reply to my posts #448 and #451.

Sven

Hey, Johnny, these reminders don't change anything. bnfiiiiiiiiii handles one post after the other, and he's still about 25 posts behind. As soon as he has reached this one, he will already have answered posts #448 and #451. He won't read it before these two, so you could as well just delete your post.

Gullwind

Why wouldn’t evidence apply to me? The evidence either exists or it doesn’t. It’s not subjective, although the interpretation might be.

Besides which, it was still a dodge. I asked you a question and you didn’t answer it. You still haven’t, by the way.

Because you asked. Also, I wasn’t involved in the discussion from the beginning. I also notice you haven't stated yours.

I’m not the one trying to convince anyone of anything. I said it wasn’t good enough for me. I didn’t say it was or wasn’t good enough for anyone else.

However, let’s go through your points from post #92.

As I understand it, Kadesh Barnae is a place name. Three million people makes for a pretty big camp, which makes a big target to miss.

They were at Kadesh Barnae for thirty-eight years, remember? Hardly mere days.

Right. For forty years, not a single dish wore out, not a single piece of pottery was broken. No cart wheels broke or jewelry was dropped. Is that in the bible or is it just an ad hoc explanation for why we haven’t found anything?

And of course, they would have taken all that loot right to the nearest pawn shop, rather than using themselves and discarding it, to be found later. It's all still there, but no one's thought to look.

It’s not that big, either. It’s less than half the size of Louisiana. How long do you think three million people could hide in that area?

This just reduces the possible areas where such a huge camp could be found. It doesn’t help your case.

Okay, there are responses to each of your assertions that the evidence would be hard to find. Happy now?

Why don’t we find this in those cases? You’re shifting the goalposts, from "who would have" to "not everyone did."

If you set out to find something specific, and you don’t find it, how can you call it anything but a failure?

You certainly haven’t established that no one would have mentioned a major defeat of a powerful neighbor, not to mention the huge numbers of livestock that Egypt would suddenly be trying to acquire. And why shouldn’t we expect any records from the Egyptians? It is my understanding that the Amarna letters describe a number of defeats. See above for the campsite issue.

Archaeologically speaking, it is very rapid. What makes me think that it didn’t happen is that we don’t find a record of it happening.

I wouldn’t expect there to be 100% agreement. That doesn’t mean that the dissenters are right. I haven’t read about any who don’t agree who don’t base that position on their religious beliefs, though.

Occam’s Razor. Which is more likely: Angels of death swooping around, seas parting, moving pillars of fire, OR someone writing a story?

That’s his opinion. He’s entitled to it. He's also not the only one who has addressed these points.

So you are the only one who gets to judge whether a post has substance or not? This seems highly ironic, for some reason.

I just did.

Now you are defining what is and is not “scholarship.” I also doubt I could prove to you that the sky was blue, if you didn’t want to accept it.

I do disagree, but I don’t see why I have to prove anything to you. You certainly don’t seem to feel you have to prove anything to anyone else. Double standard?

So you’re saying that after four hundred years, there wasn’t a single Egyptian technique or practice that the Hebrews hadn’t picked up? Not a different way of making pottery or anything? Seems hard to believe. I’m sure you can prove it, right?

Doug Shaver

Poppycock. You may so interpret them. It is not a reasonable interpretation.