Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rick Van Vliet · 05-09-2010, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

What we have is research team, dominated by Israeli's

Here's a clue, sparky, all science is dominated by Jews, and has been for over a century.

You must be really bummed about that, huh?

Rick Van Vliet · 05-09-2010, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith&Co.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Van Vliet

Uh huh, which is why I usually say "every male ancestor for 3,400 years, was a Hebrew, with no exceptions" which you quoted. But if they did cheat, and only with another Hebrew for 3,400 years, that's amazing enough.

So, after saying that it was conclusively proven that they didn't cheat at all, now you're shaving that to careful cheating. 'Kay.

Only if you think women children have the Y-Chromosome, and Samaritan women can control the gender of their children at will.

And yes, I know the logic is way too complicated.

Rick Van Vliet · 05-09-2010, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Van Vliet

A lot of Palestinians do have Hebrew blood. Particularly where the Samaritans were. The only way to stay alive was to convert.

But not near as much as the Jews, and not even remotely like the Samaritans. Yeah, a small sample, but to approach 100% it's probably close.

You cant say any of that. You are drawing conclusions that are well beyond the scope of the paper you cited, and going far beyond what the authors say.

No i'm not, that's exactly what it says. <edit>

judge · 05-09-2010, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Van Vliet

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

You cant say any of that. You are drawing conclusions that are well beyond the scope of the paper you cited, and going far beyond what the authors say.

No i'm not, that's exactly what it says. <edit for consistency>.

The paper does not mention Hebrews. The paper looks at some modern racial and religious groups, then looks at some genetic data of these groups then speculates about that data.

It is you who have misread and misunderstood the paper.

In your Opening Post you stated the following.

Quote:

And recently, genetic evidence has shown up that not only did the Samaritans split with the current Jews around 800BCE

But the paper does not say that. All the paper says is that this is a possible date to explain the data.
You misunderstood or misread this and thought that it showed this date to be the date!

At the beginning of the OP you state.

Quote:

Turns out, they're probably right.

Then at the end of the paper you turn this into a certainly by saying.

Quote:

Ok, so the Samaritans were right, and the Jews, Christians, Historians and Biblical Scholars were wrong.

But if you read the paper all you can say is that that scenario is possibly right.

judge · 05-09-2010, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Van Vliet

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

What we have is research team, dominated by Israeli's

Here's a clue, sparky, all science is dominated by Jews, and has been for over a century.

You must be really bummed about that, huh?

Do you understand the difference between jews and Israeli's?

They are not the same thing.

spamandham · 05-09-2010, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Van Vliet

Here's a clue, sparky, all science is dominated by Jews, and has been for over a century.

You must be really bummed about that, huh?

I'd be interested in seeing your evidence that shows that >50% of scientific papers are published by Jews. Hopefully this response will be more substantive than your previous "biology lesson" wherein you explained that all male Choens for the past 3400 years have had a Y chromosome in response to my request for genetic evidence supporting your absurd claims.

semiopen · 05-10-2010, 05:22 AM

Just some general comments.

There is a well known concept,

Population_bottleneck where a populatio n can be compressed resulting in things like a

Mitochondrial_Eve.

Regarding the comment that Jewish matrilineal heritage can be traced go the Levant:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0117083446.htm

states

Quote:

Some 3.5 million or 40 percent of Ashkenazi Jews are descended from just four “founding mothers” who lived in Europe 1,000 years ago.

Obviously this isn't the levant and it's qiute recent. While the article also states these mothers originated in the Levant, this is obscure to me, and oddly enough, also controversial among knowledgable people.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1336798/

Quote:

In a comment to the press after reading the new Israeli study, Professor Goldstein said he had not changed his views, as “the mtDNA of a small, isolated population tends to change rapidly as some lineages fall extinct and others become more common, a process known as genetic drift.”In his view, the Technion team confirmed that genetic drift had played a major role in shaping Ashkenazi mtDNA, but he maintained that the linkage with Middle Eastern populations was not statistically significant.

In any case, this analysis shows that a minority of Ashkenazai Jews (40%) are descendend from the women.

Regarding the Samaritans, I haven't read the pdf (which would probably only confuse me) but we are dealing with a very small population and while there can be little doubt that their have lived in the middle east for a long time, I've got to have serious doubts that much more than this can be proved.

semiopen · 05-10-2010, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Van Vliet

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Rick, I'm still confused about your dating of the Torah.

In at least one case it is 3400 years, in another you say it diverged.

I think all written sources diverged. The question is how much. I also said somewhere along the line that We can be pretty confident it's been essentially the same since 2800 years ago, how much it changed between approximately 3,400 years and 2,800 is hard to say. No direct evidence other than the Cohen gene's 3,400 year age matching the Genesis story.

The Jews returning from Babylon were foreign agents, sent back to rule the new acquisition for their foreign masters. There were Jews and Samaritans already there, every bit as much Hebrew. And why would Passover not be honored by the Samaritans, it's in the Torah.

It's never been publised in English, and their great writer, Marka has been out of print in English for almost a century. Supposedly, the Samaritan Torah is about to be published in English in the next year. But I referenced a couple experts that have read both. The two main differences is that the main temple, with the Ark of the Covenent, was at Mt. Gezerim, and the Temple of Solomon was a cheap copy with a cheap copy Ark. And that it's much less superstitious from the viewpoint of science. Some argue there are no angels at all, no supernatural creatures other than an extremely abstract God, that has no body parts, and never says or does anything like a human. A lot like the Living Father of the historical Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas.

Gotta point out the linguistics and genetics. And how they match the Bible and Assyrian story. The genetics is ho-hum, a scientific fact, but the differences in the Torahs is fascinating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

The CMH link in these guys is interesting, but the population is small. The Kohanim would probably have gone into exile with the nobles after the Assyrians conquered the country. The remaining population would have been lower class and mixed with both the new settlers as well as Judeans. The current Ashkenazai Jewish population is not really Palestinian in origin, the claims of a forced diaspora in the Common Era being quite dubious.

Therefore, I'm not sure what the point is, these people are Palestinian.

A lot of Palestinians do have Hebrew blood. Particularly where the Samaritans were. The only way to stay alive was to convert.

But not near as much as the Jews, and not even remotely like the Samaritans. Yeah, a small sample, but to approach 100% it's probably close.

I think some of my previous comments are still applicable, the thrust of which is that the Pentateuch was not completed until well after the Babylonian exile. The Samaritan version will probably contain all of these.

It is very difficult to argue against Genesis 1-2:3 being written before the end of the Babylonian exile, and this is in the

There are hundreds of passages (maybe thousands) that have

Glosses_to_the_Bible. If a single one of these appears in the Samaritan Pentateuch from after your divergence date, your theory of a clean break around the fall of Israel refuted.

In addition, you don't mention Deuteronomy, the bulk of which is almost certainly after the fall of Israel.

Even the concept of an Aaronid priesthood doesn't seem to be consistent with Israel.

Finally a word regarding the temple mount vs Gerizim. The consolidation of worship is typically taken to be a result of Deuteronomy, there is no evidence that this concept was known during the time of the Kingdom of Israel. The Pentateuchal stand was that the holy spirit hung around the sanctuary but could be driven away by impurity. What possible theological reason could justify anyone accepting Gerizim as the correct temple location today, I just don't see a current point.

The Samaritans are a legitimate and interesting field of study. Personally though, I don't expect anything to challenge the major tenets of biblical scholarship.

Keith&Co. · 05-10-2010, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

I'd be interested in seeing your evidence that shows that >50% of scientific papers are published by Jews.

Well, he says 'dominated.'
It could be that Jews just have to control the international conspiracy to use Science to destroy Christainity, by pulling the strings on funding.

So, the Jews are using the blacks as muscle to dominate the world, and the eggheads as intellectual thugs to create and dominate a godless society. That would fit in nicely with my grand-uncle's more paranoid fantasies.

squiz · 05-10-2010, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Rick's info is mirrored on a web site (http://bibletools.org) operated by a splinter group of Herbert W Armstrong's WWCofG, called Church of the Great God (CGG) and located in North Carolina (check Rick's location). One of the WWCofG tenets is that the "lost 10 tribes" emigrated to Europe. The Samaritans, you might remember, are supposed to be partly descended from the "lost tribes."

It seems that this lot are related to

British Israelism. Interesting to see that they are still around.

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