hatsoff

Then why the absurd persistence?

Amaleq13

My persistence is only in response to your reluctance to explain your reasoning so guess where any absurdity originates?

The prohibition is against worshipping graven images (ie idols) "or any likeness". That seems clearly to not limit the prohibition to graven images but extends it to worshipping any depiction and that would include drawings or paintings.

You asserted that paintings were not included in the prohibition but you have not explained your reasoning. Instead, you offered a context that appears to apply to a painting of a god as much as an idol of a god.

Why would worshipping a painting or other picture of a god not be prohibited by this commandment?

hatsoff

"3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

This is the beginning of the idea, and the premise behind the next few verses.

"4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Here's where the trouble comes. What does it mean, "graven image" (or NIV "idol")? What about "likeness"? What about "thing that is in heaven above"? or "that is in earth beneath"--or even "that is in the water under the earth"? Thankfully, the text comes full circle, and thus we have context.

"5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

Ah, so we see that this is, like in verse 3, still about "other gods." It is not about "paintings," "likenesses" or even sculptures (the traditional form of idol seen in the Bible; cf. golden calf, & others), but rather how you treat them. This is confirmed immediately thereafter, the first explanation for the commands....

for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"[/QUOTE]

So we have one main idea, divided into three sub-ideas and an explanation. That is the context. Any other reading is overly-literal, in my opinion. Also, this seems a silly disagreement, perhaps based on our last argumentative clash.

It's the "weekend" for me, which means last night and today I get to have a bit of the ol' Captain. I may not be able to respond (or respond well) for a day or so. Until then, good chap.

pharoah

Would these be the same Christians that go balistic whenever a judge orders the 10 C's removed from the public arena?

hatsoff

I would imagine not.

Amaleq13

It is not just about idols or images or likenesses but they are certainly included in the obviously universal prohibition. You have seriously misinterpreted my statement, despite subsequent clarifications, if you think I've been suggesting that paintings, in and of themselves, are prohibited.

Just answer this simple question: Does the commandment prohibit the worship of a painting of a god?

If your answer is "Yes", then you agree with me and there is no basis to your initial objection. You simply misinterpreted what I wrote.

If your answer is "No", then you still need to explain why because that does not appear to be consistent with your argument. Nothing you've said suggests that the worship of paintings is not prohibited by the commandment.

I certainly agree that your objection to my original statement seems to be silly since your most recent post supports what I've been saying all along. The prohibitions are against worshipping anything but the God of the Jews and that certainly would include worshipping paintings of gods. I suggest that, if you choose to challenge someone's post in the future, you read what they've said much more carefully, ask for clarification before objecting and provide a complete explanation of your position from the beginning. Had you offered such complete explanation at the outset of this exchange, it would have become immediately apparent that you were misinterpreting what I wrote. Saves time, effort, and bandwidth.


FYI, I've still received no PM's in your defense on that last debacle.

hatsoff

Should I collect PMs as to what you did or did not say, here? :>

Amaleq13

No, just answer my question.

Is the worship of paintings of gods prohibited by the commandment?

hatsoff

Good. Neither should you have done so.

Yes.

Amaleq13

The situations are in no way analogous and you really gave me no choice with your persistent and public insulting denials. In addition, I was asking for support for your assertion that the confusion was on the part of a small number of readers (ie all four moderators). Had anyone taken up the offer to support you, I would have reported it in the thread. As it stands, no one has felt compelled to make it known that they considered your argument to be either consistent and/or coherent. Make of that what you will but please take my recent suggestion above seriously especially if you intend to contradict anything I post in the future.

Thank you. It should, therefore, be clear how the 2nd commandment is used against the people the OP describes. They are accused of worshipping paintings of saints and that is clearly prohibited by that particular commandment. That they are not actually "worshipping" the saints is, I would assume, the primary defense argument.