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Old 11-04-2006, 07:09 AM   #261
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spin,

No serious discussion is feasable on your grounds.
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Old 11-04-2006, 07:15 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by GakuseiDon
Christians telling Tacitus around 110 CE that they believed that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate is a fairly strong piece of evidence for historicity.
And that is because . . . it is very unlikely that Christians in 110 CE could have been mistaken about how their religion got started?
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Old 11-04-2006, 01:38 PM   #263
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And that is because . . . it is very unlikely that Christians in 110 CE could have been mistaken about how their religion got started?
Yes -- though perhaps "it is unlikely" rather than "it is very unlikely". Not impossible, of course.
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Old 11-04-2006, 01:44 PM   #264
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I would agree, if I knew little about Christianity... The picture changes once you really study Christinaity. When you see that pretty much everything that is attributed to Jesus parallels pre-existing myths, legends, and wisdom teachings, and when you start to see the problems associated with the HJ position (such as the mystical writings of Paul, the multiple divergent churches that already existed in the earliest records, the utter lack of any contemporary writings about the man, etc.), the mythical position seems to be at least on par with the HJ position, if not simpler.
Yes, I would agree that other evidence may cause us to reevaluate Tacitus. I'm just questioning the idea of throwing it out because "the legend had time to grow" alone. Given that legends can spring up overnight, you get to be on a slippery slope.
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Old 11-04-2006, 03:20 PM   #265
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But if the mythicist/fictional/(or even mystical!) character position is correct, then of course Christians would talk as if Jesus was real in 110 CE, even if he never had been, and even if they knew he was not historical. To an outsider, a mystical or even known fictional Jesus could easily be misunderstood to be a real person. Of course if he was mythical, even those telling it would believe that to be true.

They would pass that on to Tacitus who would accept that "Christus" (presumed to be Jesus) was a historical figure. Why wouldn't he accept that much? If you have never been a Christian, and were only superficially knowledgable about it (like Tacitus probably would have been) there would be little reason to doubt that part of the story.

It seems to me that the use of the word "Chistus" is undeniable proof that if the text in question is legitimate, that Tacitus got his info from Christians rather than Roman records in this case.

Ultimately, what Tacitus wrote is nothing more than proof that Christianity existed (asuming the writing was authentic).

What you're saying is just right back to the argument that the existence of Christianity in the 2nd century proves a historical Jesus in the first. But that's the whole point of discussion!

The proposition is, that the mere existence of Christianity does not prove a historical Jesus, as there are other reasonable scenarios that could account for the existence of Christianity, that do not suffer from many of the same problems that the HJ position does, i.e., the claim that HJ is more parsimonius is flawed.
I'd also add that it may be that the strongest concentration of Christians who did believe in a historical Jesus was in Rome anyway - i.e. while most of the Christians in the Empire may have believed in one or another of the possible non-HJ scenarios, the Romans (and possibly Alexandrinians) were always weighted more strongly towards a strong historicisation of the character. So it's plausible that Tacitus did indeed get his information from Roman or Rome-influenced Christians, yet the bulk of Christians in the Empire did not actually hold to the same degree of historicisation. (Ehrman in his Lost Christianities makes a good case for Roman Christianity's activity in trying to persuade other Christian churches of the truth of their version of the thing; see also Walter Bauer, and the picture he paints of Catholic missionaries giving the game away by telling of struggles with already established less-HJ-ish Christianities.)
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Old 11-05-2006, 07:36 AM   #266
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perhaps "it is unlikely" rather than "it is very unlikely".
I dunno, considering how often people in general are in fact wrong about so many things.

However . . . if Christians' belief in the early second century were the only relevant datum, I'd probably give them the benefit of doubt and side with historicity. There are other data, though, and when they're all taken into consideration, historicity looks improbable to me.
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Old 11-05-2006, 09:00 AM   #267
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IThere are other data, though, and when they're all taken into consideration, historicity looks improbable to me.
The problem is that some of your supposed data are wrong or misleading:

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Given what is known of Hellenistic thinking, Paul's references to the Christ's atoning death and resurrection are consistent with his having believed that they occurred in a Platonic spirit world, not the world inhabited by mortal humans.

http://dougshaver.com/christ/ahistor/ahistor4.htm
The multiple discussions over kata sarka in this forum show the problems with this.

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That a group of first-century Jews would have deified any man, and then convinced other Jews of the man's divinity, is an improbability approaching impossibility.
This is misleading because it neglects that the Synoptic Gospels did not go so far as to portray Jesus as God. Even Paul implies in 1 Cor 15:28 that Jesus is second-in-command. It also ignores that Jews had glorified Moses and Enoch in ways that came just shy of being godlike. This would explain what we see Paul, at least in the letters not generally considered pseudo-Pauline. It also means that the idea of a man as divine is not as unthinkable to the Jews as you portrayed it to be.

I find it curious that you write:

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There was also a proliferation of messiah cults within Judaism. One of them, in Jerusalem, was a group of Hellenized Jews who thought the savior-god was their messiah

http://dougshaver.com/christ/ahistor/ahistor5.htm
So you argue that the Jews would never go as far as deifying any man, but would violate their prejudice against polytheism--which not even orthodox or proto-orthodox Christianity did--by worshiping another god altogether?

Your trajectory for ahistoricity is not hanging together here.
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Old 11-05-2006, 07:22 PM   #268
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So you argue that the Jews would never go as far as deifying any man, but would violate their prejudice against polytheism--which not even orthodox or proto-orthodox Christianity did--by worshiping another god altogether?
In this period the belief in "two powers in heaven" was a jewish variant belief that even crops up in the Bible and was not uncommon at all. Alan Segal at Columbia has done a great deal of work on this. Intermediary powers are common in Judaism. Note that while Paul has to put a great deal of effort into defending Jesus against false Jesus-s and against misunderstandings, he never has to apologize for believing in a second power in heaven.

There are a number of interesting papers online at this website:

http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/


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sm--which not even orthodox or proto-orthodox Christianity did--by worshiping another god altogether?
Of course Christianity is polytheistic -- Jesus, Satan, God, the demi-urge, etc. What label you use to describe this plethora of beings who occur in Christianity is entirely up to you, but monotheism IMHO is a poor one.

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Old 11-05-2006, 08:52 PM   #269
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In this period the belief in "two powers in heaven" was a jewish variant belief that even crops up in the Bible and was not uncommon at all. Alan Segal at Columbia has done a great deal of work on this. Intermediary powers are common in Judaism. Note that while Paul has to put a great deal of effort into defending Jesus against false Jesus-s and against misunderstandings, he never has to apologize for believing in a second power in heaven.
Here is the blurb for Segal's book, Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports About Christianity and Gnosticism (or via: amazon.co.uk):
In this study of the rabbinic heretics who believed in Two Powers in Heaven, Alan Segal explores some relationships between rabbinic Judaism, Merkabah mysticism, and early Christianity. Two Powers in Heaven was a very early category of heresy. It was one of the basic categories by which the rabbis perceived the new phenomenon of Christianity and one of the central issues over which Judaism and Christianity separated. Segal reconstructs the development of the heresy through prudent dating of the stages of the rabbinic traditions. The basic heresy involved interpreting scripture to say that a principal angelic or hypostatic manifestation in heaven was equivalent to God. The earliest heretics believed in two complementary powers in heaven, while later heretics believed in two opposing powers in heaven. Segal stresses the importance of perceiving the relevance of rabbinic material for solving traditional problems of New Testament and gnostic scholarship, and at the same time maintains the necessity of reading those literatures for dating rabbinic material.
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Old 11-05-2006, 09:02 PM   #270
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I dunno, considering how often people in general are in fact wrong about so many things.

However . . . if Christians' belief in the early second century were the only relevant datum, I'd probably give them the benefit of doubt and side with historicity. There are other data, though, and when they're all taken into consideration, historicity looks improbable to me.
If you mean Doherty's MJ, then I'd suggest that the evidence is against it.

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Originally Posted by Doug Shaver
Given what is known of Hellenistic thinking, Paul's references to the Christ's atoning death and resurrection are consistent with his having believed that they occurred in a Platonic spirit world
What is a "Platonic spirit world" and what is the evidence for the idea existing in pagan writings? Doherty claims that it was something believed in by "the average pagan" but I'm not aware that he has produced ANYTHING along that lines to show that the concept existed in pagan literature.

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That a group of first-century Jews would have deified any man, and then convinced other Jews of the man's divinity, is an improbability approaching impossibility
I second Vork's recommendation -- read through some of the articles in the link he gave, and you can see where Paul is coming from. IMHO Paul viewed Jesus (partly) as a second Moses, a divine intermediary on earth who brought in a New Covenant. This article from the link Vork gave is useful:
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/psco/year25/8802.shtml
Enoch and Moses, however, are the most important non-Christian figures of divinization or angelic transformation. For instance, Philo describes Moses as divine, based upon the word God used of him in Exodus 4:16 and 7:1. Thus Sirach 45:1-5 compares Moses to God in the Hebrew or "equal in glory to the holy ones", in the Greek version of the text. Philo and the Samaritans also expressed Moses' pre-eminence in Jewish tradition by granting him a kind of deification. In the Testament of Moses, Moses is described as the mediator or arbiter of his covenant" (1:14)...

Philo can speak of Moses as made into a divinity in several places. In exegeting Moses' receiving the Ten Commandments, Philo envisions an ascent, not merely up the mountain but to the heavens, describing possibly a mystical identification between this manifestation of God and Moses by suggesting in his Life of Moses and Questions and Answers on Exodus that Moses attained to a divine nature through contact with the divinity...

The surviving text of Ezekiel the Tragedian also hints at a transformation of an earthly hero into a divine figure which he relates that the venerable man (phos gennaios) handed Moses his scepter and summoned him to sit upon the throne, placing a diadem on his head. Thereafter the stars bow down to him and parade for his inspection. Since stars and angels are identified throughout the biblical period, there can be no doubt that Moses here is depicted as the leader of the angels and hence above the angels. This enthronement scene with a human figure being exalted as a monarch or divinity in heaven resembles the enthronement of the "Son of man"; the enthronement helps us understand some of the traditions which later appear in Jewish mysticism and may have informed Paul's theology and mystical ascent in 2 Corinthians.
(ETA) I'm just waiting for the next logical step in the Jesus Myth camp: From "NO Jewish person back then could have regarded a human as a divine mediator figure", to "Bah! Human divine mediator figures were a dime a dozen back then! What makes Jesus so unique???"
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