Sheshbazzar

I forgot to put a big grin after "that existential angst" part, I assure you, I am very at ease with my place in the world, I expect my destiny is as that of any other leaf, to fall, and return to the elements of the earth, and be no more, evermore.
I delight in the natural order of all things, cherishing each days experiences.
Contrary to old Jewish/Christian teachings, I do not look on death as an enemy that needs to be defeated, but rather a natural event that makes way for suceeding generations, even as old leaves must fall to make way new.
Long since, I have made my peace with the realities of nature, I don't think I would even want to "live forever" in some perpetually stagnated "heavenly" environment that was geared only to the satisfying my own desires.

For all that, I do desire to see the human lifespan extended, with the quality of life in the latter years improved, an end to those deseases and conditions that now still often overtake us at any age.
I am old enough, that I've already seen far too many young ones suffer far to much, and pass before their time.

Returning to the subject of the OP, and your query;
I first need explain, most of my posts on IIDB over the last 3 weeks have been made 500 miles away from my home, on the publicly available computers in a Lansing MI ICU hospital waiting room, with many normaly available access features "restricted".
You have thus far offered no comments at all on mgO1's posts and his mentions of Ya, and these were what led to my further posts.

One source (out of many) that I have been perusing for my information is from http://www.bibleorigins.net/YahwehYawUgarit.html
Yahweh-Elohim's Historical Evolution (Pre-Biblical)
Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld y de la Torre, M.A. Ed.

Which if you look, contains far, far too much information regading the name "Ya" and the various associations, and associated spellings, to even begin to convey within the confines of this forum.

Loomis

Afaik, Yamm is masculine but Tiamat is feminine. Do you have any thoughts or comments on this?

Where did Tiamat get her sex change? When did she become Prince Yamm?

Are you familiar with Baba Batra 74b?
Isn't that a "missing link" between Rahab of the Bible, Prince Yamm of the Baal Epic, and Tiamat of the Enuma Elish?

mg01

Actually it's just YH, יה. There are passages in the Bible in imbedded early poetry and Psalms that mention simply YH, not YHWH. The Song of the Sea in Exodus is one ("YH is my strength and my song he has become my salvation. He is my El, and I will praise him, my father's Elohim, and I will exalt him." Ex 15:2). Adjacent passenges however use YHWH, though it may be a case where as in other examples for instance YHWH, El, and Elohim are repeated in effort to show/claim they are all one and the same. Also technically, any place that has "Hallelujah" is an example as well because it is literally "praise-YH". I ~think~ I recall reading on some inscriptions that used YH and not YHWH, but I may be wrong. It's a convention that likely goes back earlier than at least the 9th century, probably 10th as by the time of E the title YHWH was likely more popular.

I also found the temple seal announcement rather interesting. Seems surprising to see such an attempt being made to connect what's obviously a symbol of moon worship to the temple, though kings clearly tells us lots of things that were later seen as unsavory went on there. After seeing it I when poking around and found a couple links also discuing the the YHWH moon charcteristics. The Google books one was particularly interesting. You can back up and read the whole article which summarizes the theories of the day (1912) concerning origins of YHWH, though some have likely been discredited.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/yah.htm

Google Books: Studies in the History of Religions

The third lecture in the book "The rise of Ancient Israel" from a Sithsonian symposium in 1999 (I think) also discusses possible YHWH origins and concludes the most likely scenerio being the southern connection with the Shasu having made his way to the late bronze hill peoples in the 14-13 centuries.

There also seems to be quite a bit of material on the web, not all of it positive, with reference to Islam as a re-invention of an ancient moon god (basically Sin). I'd probably give about as much weight to the idea as I would YHWH having been one, but the connections do seem more obvious. Then when you consider that many would consider the prime deity of Judism, Christianty, and Islam all derive one original source, it may be that also shows some connection as to the original nature of YHWH as well.

Another potential connection is Moses's snake staff, sometimes compared with the Caduceus. The staff was given to him by YHWH as the incident of the burning bush, which was on fire (sun) but not consumed (moon). The snake is connected to the moon and to wisdom, just as with the Caduceus, which was represented by two intertwinded snakes giving the repeated pattern of the crescent moon pre and post new moon, and symbolizing the life death cycle. It's used still today in conjunction with healing and medicine. The Caduceus is associated with Hermes whom the Greeks associated with Thoth, because of an association of wisdom, but with Thoth we're back again to the moon. As a sacred object of worship, Moses's staff was reported to have been preserved alongside (or in) the Ark, reportely destroyed by Josiah (or was it Hezakiah) as part of his reforms.

Then again, the whole thing could just as well be ascribed to some degree of sycreticism where as YHWH grew in stature he inherited moon characteristics same as with El and Baal.

mg01

That's the other half of the equation I think is often overlooked. As Baal can also be used as actually just a title, "lord", how can we be so sure he always is some "other god" (Baal of Hadad, etc..l) and in places not just a reference to YHWH? The same is considered with El, which can mean the deity El of just el, a deity. The oracles of Balaam are particually ambiguous for making the claim that it was El "who brought you up out of Egypt" in passages that are difficult to connect if El is reference to YHWH or El?

The other thing that always needs to be considered as these degrees of syncreticism happened at different rates in different times and in different places. It very well could be the case that the nature we draw of YHWH from the text is as much a composite as the text itself.

Also a rather strong "us vs theme" theme is pretty evident from the text, and though this could nothing but a later development, there may be some early tradition behind it, particularly in reference to the idea of the promise of the land to the hill people who by necessity have to be distinguished from the "other people". The same would apply to their god. Having originated to some degree as Canaanites, the "baal" they worshiped would have needed to be connected to YHWH, not the Canaanite Baal of the peoples they struggled against.

The other thing Kings gives good examples of is the distinction between the "poplular" version of the religion of the people, vs the "ideal" version of the religion envisioned by the priestly supporters of YHWH associated with the temple. If the situation was indeed as bad as it's portrayed the events where canannite worship are so strongly condemed, often by threats of physical punishment by YHWH (either targeted at a small group or at the entire nation via YHWH "encurring the wrath" of their enemies, i.e., the Assyrians). All the stories in Exodus through Kings can be seen in this light, worship YHWH or be punished. ("for I, YHWH, your Elohim, am a jealous el [god]" Exod 20:4 and elsewhere).

Part of my point here is just that there are simply more questions than answers. There appears to have been so much mixing and matching going on in the early stages that are latter mixed together by the texts in an ideallized form, that the original true nature of YHWH, if a single true nature ever really existed, is in all likelyhood lost.

spin

This interpretation causes problems. First it would mean that the name of the deity grew, not a likely linguistic scenario. Then most Hebrew theophoric names are with YHW and contraction is late in Hebrew, eg Yehoshua -> Yeshua. Thirdly YHW is mentioned with the Shasu in Egyptian texts. And the Elephantine texts use YHW.

The major factor to deal with is the tetragrammaton. Where did it come from. A corollary is why is Asherah referred to at Kuntillet Ajrud as Ashratah? This latter is usually interpreted as "his Asherah" (the -t- appearing when a pronominal suffix is added). If the final /h/ is a suffix with Asherah in the Kuntillet Ajrud inscription then it may as well be one for YHW. It is a difficulty, but then no theophoric names use YHWH, so it must be seen as secondary.

While Kuntillet Ajrud dates to the 9th/8th centuries, the biblical literature is much, much later, so making definitive claims based solely on it is a risky business. The few biblical passages that use YH may simply be later than expected. Your reference to Ex 15:2 and its use of YH may simply be a late summary interpolation. But the whole subject is risky ground.


spin

mg01

"Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic" and "Studies in Ancient Yahwistic Poetry" both discuss this briefly but I have difficulty following the details as they are both very technical linguistic discussions. What I do recall however was description of YHW as the verb for "to be", or "to create", or "to cause to be", or "who is", depending on context and what spin you want to put on it in translation into English. It's found in Canaanite, Hebrew, Arabic, and related to an Akkadian equivalent, hence the Yah association with the names at Mari. It's found in the Canaanite sense in epithets to El translated as, "El lives" or "El endures" (something like YHW-'L). This is completely in line with descriptions of YHWH found in the Bible where he is frequently described as the "living God" and the single "El Olam" ("Eternal God") epithet. The extra "he" on the end may have resulted out of the early system of vowels where a letter was tacked onto the end to indicate pronunciation. "he" was one of the letters used. How YHWH and YH were equated I don't recall seeing discussed in detail but with each reference I've run across the position is by default they are the same with no explanation why. Again you only have to look at Hallelujah and it's usage in theophoric names from the Bible to see that as the case.

I'm no scholar, but from everything I've gathered the explanation that makes the most since is that YHWH was originally derived out of an epithet for El, stemming from YHW, which found it's way into popular usage in the south in the middle bronze and made it's way back north into the proto-Israelite hill peoples in the late bronze. The connection plays into the idea put forth in the bible in making the early El-YHWH connection. El is never criticized in the text in the way Baal is, if you connect YHWH is El, this makes sense, as does the whole, "your fathers knew me as El Shadday, but my name is YHWH." scenario.

The actual nature of the YHWH-El connection in the Bible is impossible to deduce. Some claim he is El, some claim he's the son of El, and in other places it appears as he is some sort of agent of El. (YHWH as some sort of personal Elohim who serves as an individual’s mediator with their relationship to the divine in general.) For that reason one has to be carefully when trying to draw a single picture of the situation by cross referencing different sections of the text that seem to represent different portrayals from different areas in different times.

DrZoidberg

According to Stephen Pinker belief in God is an evolutionary side effect our speech development. We can only refer to objects as intelligent agents. Rain rains, ie, it rains because the rain wants to rain. etc. We all know rocks flying into peoples heads, is not the will of the rock, so even though that is what people say, we know that isn't what they mean.

But when we're talking about things which aren't obvious, it gets worse. The step from here to deducing intelligent agency behind the scenes is not that big.

Probably people have believed in variants of God since speech was first developed.

Sheshbazzar

There seems to be a perhaps unintended tendency to try to keep the YHWH religious cult "pure" from any taint of syncretisim with "other" or foreign religions, yet reading the text indicates that such syncretisim was ongoing.
Unless we want to claim that the Torah text was either developed in a total cultural vacume, without "borrowing" anything from preceeding cultures mythologies or their theological "terms" and "names", or that it was written down exactly as dictated under divine inspiration, it only makes sense, and is logical, that the text as we have it "borrowed" heavily from both earlier and "other" religions.

There was no requirement inherent within that "borrowing" that the stories would remain faithful to their original sources, Likewise "names" would not nescessarily reflect the legends and mythologies that had originally been attached to them.
The Hebrew writer's were not constrained to repeating stories or names word for word as they had appeared within certain Ugaritic or Babylonian written sources.
Morever, as these legends were ancient, and were deseminated to mostly illterate populations by way of oral recitations, there was much opportunity and incentive to adapt the myths to the needs and desires of the storyteller(s) and the audiance.

Over thousands of years, and myrid different cultures there would have developed many versions and variations on practically any "creation" myths.
Thus for an uneducated audiance that was removed by a thousand years and hundreds of miles, speaking a different language, there would be no problem in the transitioning a minor god such as Ya, of a lost culture, into an entirely different position and mythology, even more easily than they were able to convert the older stories involving six days of destruction, into a new revised story of six days of creation.

I accept religious syncretism as a fact that has existed for as long as religion has existed. The "Hebrew" nation grew out of a people gradually coming to accept a certain set of legends that were borrowed from a variety of sources and somewhat skillfully adapted and manipulated by their kings and religious leaders to consolidate political power by gathering a diverse poulation into becoming "one people", being held together with a common belief in a "Promise", no matter that that "promise", and its associated "history" was fully fabricated out of a mish-mash of other peoples ancient legends.

I accept that yhwh was a product of ancient religious syncretisim, and as such represented whatever it was that its earliest employers wanted it to signify, and that in the usages of those times its meaning and application would have been just as scrambled as it still is today.

Wether spelled as Ya, Ia, Yao, Ieue, yho, Iao, yhwh, or _any_ other variation, it has no magical powers. That one particular spelling became the cult focus, and shibboleth of the Jewish people, does not elevate it to any actual superiority above the older and other names that it was plagurized from.

Darklighter

Very interesting. It seems the authors had no choice but to examine the stories and legends that were circulating among the people and then unite them in a single text and then say "Hey people, you know all those great oral stories you all tell your kids? Look, we found the originals! Here's this story, that story, etc..., and we were telling them a little wrong!" Hmmm... That sounds familiar to certain events during King Josiah's reign.

I guess what is certain though, is that it didn't happen the way it's presented in scripture.

John Kesler

You may find of interest my post from a previous thread. In it, I discuss El, the Ugaritic tablets, etc.
By the way, the expression is "toe the line," the way a runner does behind a starting line.

Try Friedman's The Bible With Sources Revealed (or via: amazon.co.uk), which assigns each source (J,E,D,P) a color, and codes the text of the Torah accordingly.