DCHindley

Spin,

I have not been paying any attention to that other thread. FWIW, Spin, I don't think you tore that citation apart as much as expressed your disdain for it.

After looking at it a bit, at least the page TedM referred to in that other thread, is that it does reflect what I have read in them thar critical books you speak of. The messianic expectations or hopes expressed in ancient Jewish and Christian literature varied wildly one from another. I do not think that anyone can say that "Jews" as a collective whole had a longing for this or that type of messiah, only that some Jews held this or that position ate this or that period in time and place.

I am basing my opinion on what was stated in various academic sources, especially the revised edition of Emil Schuerer's The History of the Jewish People in the Age of Jesus Christ (volume 2, 1979, chapter 29 "Messianism") as well as critical comments I have read in Charlesworth's Old Testament Pseudepigrapha (vol 1 1983, vol 2 1985) and Charles' Apocrypha & Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament (vol 2, 1913).

While the Livius author does not refer directly to the secondary literature he may have used, his presentation and sources do seem to reflect familiarity with them. Sorry.

DCH

spin

Perhaps you can get into the overwrought and fanciful interpretation of the few texts cited to come to a "sage messiah", but to me it's just conjecture with sources that don't back it up.

Would you ever consider saying something like "the Jews were desperate .. for a Messiah"?

Not a good selection there, DCH. Schuerer is 100 years old Charles is 90 years old and Charlesworth is a conservative schmuck: with the exception of his editing the Anchor pseudepigrapha, I haven't found anything his name has been on that was worth the effort. I've got Qumran Questions, The Pesharim and Qumran History and Jesus and the DSS -- and I haven't opened any of them since evaluating them.




spin

Iskander

The messiah theme is continuously present in the life of the Israelites. A period of intense speculation about the nature of the Messiah were not uncommon during the Second Temple period, whether these periods of intense speculation indicate a desperate longing for his arrival or not is simply not a point worth arguing about.

A Messiah is an emissary of God and need not be Jewish. Isa 45:1 described Cyrus of Persia as God’s anointed:
Yeshayahu- Isaiah - Chapter 45

1. So said the Lord to His anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I held, to flatten nations before him, and the loins of kings I will loosen, to open portals before him, and gates shall not be closed


As a hero the Messiah ben Joseph will be mourned by the Jewish people-the Talmud says. If there is a Messiah ben Joseph in the Talmud and a Persian Messiah in Isaiah and two Messianic figures depicted in Zechariah-the high priest and the messianic king- and later the prophet of the last days, the finding of a sage Messiah on this forum is not surprising.
:notworthy:

spin

What about a rock'n'roll messiah?


spin

dockeen

Very tangentially related, but interesting:

http://www.jews4judaism.org/jewsforjudaism/

DCHindley

Oh my.

I don't see your point. Yes, I could see someone thinking that without being shocked and dismayed. Wasn't it Nicholas Perrin who proposed a sage messiah as the subject of Ecclesiastes 1:1-11 and 12:9-14? The phrase is also used quite a bit by Jacob Neusner to describe one of many Jewish POVs.

I'm beginning to worry about the level of your background reading, Spin.

The revised English edition of Schuerer was completely updated between 1973 and 1987 by Geza Vermes, Fergus Miller, Matthew Black and Martin Goodman, based on the 3rd revised German edition. You must be thinking of the translation of the 2nd German edition by John Macpherson, published as 5 volumes between 1885 and 1891, sold by Hendrickson. Go ahead, make fun of Vermes, Black, et al as well.

Charles' APOT was for many years the best and most detailed critical translation of many books of the Pseudepigrapha available, regardless of whether you think Charles was too "old school" or held biases common to his era (duh).

While I agree that Charlesworth himself does not add much to the discussion, I am talking about the Anchor Pseudepigrapha (OTP). Of the 65 translations of ancient Jewish literature in the 2 volumes, he translated only 5 of them, so go ahead and throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Some of the translations in these volumes are better than others. E. Isaac's translation of 1 Enoch is based on a single ms, as compared to Charles' eclectic translation. Charles' version of 1 Enoch is closer to the version found in the Aramaic fragments from the DSS (see the critical translation by Matthew Black, 1985). In fact, IMHO Charles translation of Jubilees and Box's translation of 4th Ezra on APOT are better than the ones in the Charlesworth's OTP. However, the translations of 3 Enoch (the Hebrew book), Sibylline Oracles, and Testament of Solomon are top notch.

What I like the most about Charlesworth's OTP is that it provides translations of ancient Jewish Pseudepigrapha and Jewish-Hellenistic works outlined in, dare I say, the revised edition of Schuerer's Jewish people volumes iii.1 & iii.2.

The Livius author shows at least passing familiarity with these kinds sources and their interpretation. Scoff away.

DCH

Johnny Skeptic

Just a small note. Regarding "Messainism," isn't the correct spelling Messianism? If so, I thought that you would want to know.

stephan huller

As a Jew and someone interested in messianic traditions I think Scholem's The Messianic Idea in Judaism: And Other Essays on Jewish Spirituality (or via: amazon.co.uk) is invaluable. I know it principally deals with a later period but you can't understand Marcionite and heretical Christianity you have to encounter other so-called 'antinomian' messianic traditions WITHIN Judaism. Mzungus are so stupid about this. They imagine that Jews 'exclusively worship the Creator' and have always done so. So uninformed.

Read this book and you'll understand everything. Otherwise you end up the trap set up by the pious Christians and the mendacious rabbanites. It's a shame that ALL scholars of early Christianity aren't more informed about Judaism (and Samaritanism). Marcion can't make sense (and doesn't make sense) as a result of this deficiency.

show_no_mercy

With pseudo-deities like Ben Sirach's Wisdom, Philo's Logos, Daniel's Son of Man (at least how later writers misinterpreted Daniel), and Antiochus IV's Jewish supporters who rejected circumcision, it's not hard to see how something like Christianity in all its flavors came about.

bacht

I wonder if Jewish monotheism wasn't always a fragile thing, from at least Ezra's time down to the retrenching of the rabbis after 70. The little temple at Elephantine was right beside an Egyptian temple which I've read was later extended over the former's ruins.