ToMeK

I just looked at this area again recently and I realised that it is quite pointless. If anything, it should be renamed to Evolution. There is nothing taht even comes close to having creatinism as a reasonable theory. It is pure mythology taken too far. Kind of like arguing that the world is round or taht it is the center of the universe.

There will probably be some fundies critiscizing me for being close-minded or something though this really doesn't concern me. Any type of argument taht fundies make always comes down to havng faith and belief in god. This alone excludes the whole position from the domain of reason.

Basically, what Im asking is if discussing creationism is a waste of time or not for people. Creationists are simply wrong. There is no real argument here and I am sure many of you fellow rational people will agree. Its quite embarrasing IMO, for anyone to claim taht creationism is the correct explanation. Is tehre really any point to this area of discussions? If anything, we should have a sticky pointing to some contact numbers for psychotherapy for the rare creationist that may notice how their mind is failing them.

Tomek

PS
I was kind of bored so my opinion here aint that..strong. I simply cannot see the purpsoe and enjoyment in discussing evolution / creationism with dilluded people. There is no chance of really changing their mind.

justsumner

A fool convinced against his will,
Remains a misquided fool still.

You are right on.. :thumbs:

Aria

This forum, at the very least, serves as a great well of information for some of us. Wandering through Talk Origins is all well and good, but sometimes you need somebody with a grasp on the larger perspective to break something down for you, so that you may in turn find all the relevant information. I've learned very much simply by reading the posts here.

mountain_hare

I agree. I've asked numerous questions here, and have gotten great responses. This forum is on par with the Talkorigins website. Talkorigins has great stuff, but there is an occasion where it doesn't contain exactly what you need, or it is too complex for me to understand.

LOL. I think that this should be renamed "Evolution Stronghold", instead of Evolution vs. Creationism.

Freaky

You said, "A wise one created us ";
That may be true, we would agree.
"Outside of time and space," you postulated.
Then why not say at once that you
Propound a mystery immense
Which tells us of our lack of sense?

Abu 'l'Ala Ahmad ibn 'Abdallah al-Ma'arri (973-1057)

ToMeK

I know taht from your sig at the Brights Forums Freaky

And yes, I would personally suggest a name change of the area. Evolution VS Creationism is like... Science VS a Very Dead and Dug Up Horse.... There is simply no contest so the area name should IMO be changed accordingly.

espritch

Whether there is any legitimacy to the Creationist view isn't really the point. The point is that the Creationists think they do have a valid stance, and to judge by recent school board decisions, a surprising number of people who should know better seem to agree. In a rational world we wouldn't have to keep fighting the same old battles against nonsense over and over. But we don't live in a particularly rational world.

Creationism isn't going to just go away however much we would like for it to. So we can keep on fighting the battle or let them hijack science education in this country as a pulpit for their religious views. It sucks but that's life.

ToMeK

Hmmmm... Agreed. Just taht, I dont think you can stop much creationist movememnts from here...

How far shud this freedom of speech thing go? Coz really, they are totally lying, going against your constituion (freedom of religion and state/church separation) with an opinion that has been utterly destroyed through rational debate.

There is no point in asking if silencing these fools would be an option. A fundie president wouldnt allow that. A rational governemtn and education system would simply ignore it until so they might give up in the end. Education systems shud especially be wary of this stuff but it really seems like America is not a very intelligent country population wise.

I have read stats which say that more people believe in angels than evolution, near half of people dont know that the sun is just a star. No offence to the smarter americans here but your country doesnt exactly have a large crop of smart people to pick from... It does however have frantic and bloody annoying persistent 'pests' which never cease trying to push their dillusional beliefs onto other people and their children. Who never cease being abosutely stupid :P

Tomek

espritch

As the old saying goes, "I may disagree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." If I could silence the Creationists, I wouldn't do it. Trying to force reason on people is even more intellectually dishonest than Creationism.

Besides, as an agnostic and a skeptic, I am part of a distinct minority. If this country did start enforcing group-think, it would most likely adopt the views most acceptable to the majority, and those wouldn't necessarily be the most rational.

The best answer to the problem is better education, not just with respect to scientific ideas like Evolution, but with respect to critical thinking. Unfortunately, most grade school and high school curricula in this country don't directly address critical thinking. And you can often get a college degree without ever studying the subject. Let's face it; the last thing most politicians want is an educated public that really thinks critically about issues. It would make it much harder to sell them sound bites.

Last time I checked, America didn't have an exclusive monopoly on stupidity. 50% of the people you meet are below average intelligence (although, curiously, 90% of the people you meet think they are part of the upper 50%). Nevertheless, education is still the best solution. Critical thinking isn't really all that hard. Most people don't practice it because they haven't been exposed to it and haven't had any practice applying it.

The main problem with America is that we are excessively religious. Blind faith is directly at odds with critical thinking. It is ironic that a country that incorporated separation of Church and State into it's constitution would end up being far more religious than European nations with official State sponsored religions. I guess the separation of Church and State produced a religious free market. People who were dissatisfied with their particular brand of religion didn't have to critically examine their basic religious assumptions. They just shopped around for another brand more to their taste.

ToMeK

I do agree with freedom of speech. I just think that in such cases as creationism, it shud be silenced from anything involving education.