Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 01-12-2011, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But there is no reason to think that the documents Luijendijk has found weren't typical Christians who later went on to accept the Nicene Creed. There is nothing Manichaean about the documents.

Hey Stephan,

my point is that this question may never have been asked of the document. Have a quick look at P. Harr. 107: Is This Another Greek Manichaean Letter? by I Gardner - 2000.

What was once presumed to be one of the earliest Christian letters on papyrus from Egypt is now being argued for as another Manichaean letter. The Manichaeans had churches and read from the canonical books of Mani. Consequently the "Ammonius, son of Copres, lector of the former church of the village of Chysis." may turn out to have been Manichaean.

In a review of Samuel Lieu's "Manichaeanism and the Roman East" by Iain Gardner in Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, Third Series, Vol. 5, No. 2 (Jul., 1995) (pp. 261-262) the author concludes ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain Gardner

The documentary texts from Kellis show that the "Manichaeans" thought of themselves and described themselves as Christians, as "the holy church".

Is Chysis near Kellis?

Chili · 01-12-2011, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

[QUOTE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain Gardner

The documentary texts from Kellis show that the "Manichaeans" thought of themselves and described themselves as Christians, as "the holy church".

Is Chysis near Kellis?

Yes but there is a difference between Holy and holy Pete.

stephan huller · 01-12-2011, 11:43 PM

Pete

I think you must be a masochist. Why do you continue to go down this road? If there were any reason to believe that the community was Manichaean it would likely have been brought up by those familiar with the document. There is no 'conspiracy' among scholars to 'fabricate' the existence of the ante-Nicene Church.

But here's what I don't get. Instead of just ignoring the evidence and continuing to do what you do (which you do anyway regardless of the state of the evidence as we have seen time and time again) you put forward this:

Quote:

The documentary texts from Kellis show that the "Manichaeans" thought of themselves and described themselves as Christians, as "the holy church".

Of course they thought of themselves as Christian. Everyone in the world knows this except for you and your sidekicks. But they thought of themselves as Christians in the same way that Hanson thought they were a great rock band (at least from the perspective of orthodox Christians).

Once you admit you had at least some Christians being persecuted in 304 CE there was a Great Persecution of Christians. Your whole theory is so ... whatever, I can't be bothered any more.

I guess your point is that 'the Manichaeans thought that they were really Christians' in 304 CE but they really weren't and the Imperial government 'thought' they were persecuting Christians at the beginning of the third century but they were also mistaken.

You've invented a new docetic myth.

avi · 01-13-2011, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But here's what I don't get. Instead of just ignoring the evidence and continuing to do what you do (which you do anyway regardless of the state of the evidence as we have seen time and time again)

another opinion

avi

mountainman · 01-18-2011, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I guess your point is that ..... the Imperial government 'thought' they were persecuting Christians at the beginning of the third century but they were also mistaken.

You've invented a new docetic myth.

SOURCE: Eusebius

Let's just examine some of the "evidence" by which a great persecution of "christians" is considered by some to be an historical event under the rule of Diocletian, the cabbage grower. Apparently the Pagans dobbed the christians in for disruption of the pagan sacrifices. The Christians were telepathically knocking out the GPS gear in the incoming sacrificial gods in the service of Apollo, and the sacrificial operations were in a state of downtime. Tricky christians eh? Such highly advanced WOO POWERS!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eusebius writing the Life of the THRICE BLESSED Lord God Caesar Constantine

CHAPTER L:
That the Persecution originated an Account of the Oracle of Apollo,
who, it was said, could not give Oracles because of "the Righteous Men."

"About that time it is said that Apollo spoke from a deep and gloomy cavern, and through the medium of no human voice, and declared that the righteous men on earth were a bar to his speaking the truth, and accordingly that the oracles from the tripod were fallacious. Hence it was that he suffered his tresses to droop in token of grief, (1) and mourned the evils which the loss of the oracular spirit would entail on mankind. But let us mark the consequences of this.

CHAPTER LI:
That Constantine, when a Youth, heard from him who wrote the Persecution Edict
that "the Righteous Men" were the Christians.

"I call now on thee, most high God, to witness that, when young, I heard him who at that time was chief among the Roman emperors, unhappy, truly unhappy as he was, and laboring under mental delusion, make earnest enquiry of his attendants as to who these righteous ones on earth were, and that one of the Pagan priests then present replied that they were doubtless the Christians.

This answer he eagerly received, like some honeyed draught, and unsheathed the sword which was ordained for the punishment of crime, against those whose holiness was beyond reproach. Immediately, therefore, he issued those sanguinary edicts, traced, if I may so express myself, with a sword's point dipped in blood; at the same time commanding his judges to tax their ingenuity for the invention of new and more terrible punishments.

RECAP

So, the story goes that the oracles of Apollo no longer were able to speak the truth.
They were being restrained by the Christians in the vicinity of the sacrifices, etc.
Like Jedi masters, the Christians were screening and interferring with the usual gods
in the service of Apollo - on account of their Jedi righteousness.

How interesting. And so who were these wonderfully gifted people the Jedi?

Nobody knew.

So Diocletian asks the question and one of the pagan priests says

"IT WAS THE CHRISTIANS".

Of course! It all makes sense now.
The "Righteous Ones were Christians".
The priests of Apollo told everyone so!!
We can believe the priests of Apollo.
IN EUSEBIUS WE TRUST.
What more evidence do you need ?

I'd personally like something more substantial.

Was the Great Christian Persecution an Anti-Pagan Public Relations Exercise?

This bit of evidence looks like another example of a retrojected
Christian State Religion Anti-Pagan Public Relations Exercise
that Eusebius (or one of his continuators/preservers) cobbled together when Bullneck bit the dust.

As an afterthought, the battle between the Christians and the Powers of Apollo, which precipitated this alleged persecution, happened in a strange and MYTHICAL realm.

I dont think this realm was either real or historical, but rather ---- in the words of Arnaldo Momigliano, "reflect the inevitable vagaries of Eusebius’ mind to whom chronology was something between an exact science and an instrument of propaganda.".

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