diana

...(and speaking out when you don't get it.)

I recently made a blog entry about the unfortunate events of September 11th where I am right now. We were bombarded with mortar/rocket fire and much of it was frighteningly close. My entry was basically an essay about how it feels to be an atheist among the military religious, and included commentary relating to how I'm still an atheist despite the fact that I only wish I had something so protective as a foxhole to crawl into.

It was a sad entry in almost every respect. Along with our awareness of our own imminent danger, we are all aware that a 25-year-old man had a rocket land right behind him which blew off both his legs and one of his arms. They say he was unrecognizable. The first people to the scene found him on his face, turned him over and his legs stayed where they were. Due to quick action on the part of his rescuers and doctors, though, he lived (I strongly suspect this will appear in the news as little more than a man who was "wounded" here, unless the Pres stops by to present him with a meaningless medal, pat him on the back and get a photo-op).

We've discussed, on and off and in different circles, whether we think his living is a good thing or not. The question is very much on everyone's mind, as we're all aware on some level that that could have been us. (I maintain I'd rather be dead if it were me, but for his sake, since he did live, I can only hope he finds purpose and joy in life somehow.)

Anyhow, my post was met by several professions of personal faith, along with the usual comments about how I have the choice to believe or not and the obligatory "I'll pray for you even if you don't believe" stuff.

I wasn't in the mood. I'm often not. The more I am confronted with unsolicited affirmations of faith when I mention my lack of, the more I am offended by the practice. I find it rude and presumptuous. It's also a double-standard. It simple isn't done to respond to a Christian's comment about his faith with, "God is a figment of your imagination" or any form thereof.

Why, then, is it considered socially-acceptable for a Christian to respond to having learned someone is an atheist with "God loves you even if you choose to not believe in him" or any form thereof? What's more, if the atheist lets it be known that such a comment is unwelcome and offensive, why is he the one who is being rude?

The more I thought about this, the more I realized that I'm no longer willing to accept this double standard--particularly on my blog where I have administrative rights and I control the conversation. I deleted all affirmations of faith and "I'll pray for you's," then posted an explanation of why I'd removed them. I stated that if they wanted to pursue religious conversation in any way, they were to come here, register and start a thread (and invite me).

A friend of mine was most offended and came back with the following tidbits:

Then I thought about responding that she did have a manual and when I said "If one or more people made a point of saying 'God is a figment of your imagination' every time you mentioned you're a Christian, you'd know how I feel," I was only using different words to say "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Then I decided to keep this conversation off the blog, so I deleted her responses and posted a link to here for anyone who's interested in pursuing the conversation.

The blog, per se, is not about my lack of faith. However, since it is part of who I am, and affects how I relate to the world and deal with events, it enters into my writings. I find it deeply offensive that my deletion of inappropriate comments (and they were--they weren't even linked to "and this is why I'd just place my fate in God's hands were I you" or anything pertaining to the subject of the post; they were simply knee-jerk responses to the fact that I'd said I'm atheist) suddenly has me labeled as "intolerant of Christianese thinking."

Those are just my thoughts, though. I'm curious as to how y'all feel in such situations and why. How do you respond? Or do you? If you don't, why not?

d

Yahzi

Um... because they own most of the rockets... I thought you, of all people, would understand that.

Because it's a buzz kill. They spent a lot of good money getting that high, and it's rude of you to bring them down. Unless you're planning to share your stash.

Hooboy... ya done sicked a lot o' mad dogs on us. But then, that's the mission of the IIDB: clubbing snarling, foaming dogs to the ground and adminstering merciful quantities of reason and logic.

Everytime someone tells me I'm too nice to be an atheist, it makes me want to just smack them in the head. Just out of a desire to please, of course.

Atheists are the last social group it is acceptable to discriminate against. Mabye a few years after we let homosexuals get married, we can think about legalizing Atheist marriages...


Seriously, religion is a form of hypnosis, and all hypnosis works better in groups. Atheism directly inhibits that hypnosis. My whole life, I've always been the guy in the spine suit while everyone else was wearing balloons. The utterly minor and inconsequential fact that atheism is objectively true is important only in rare instances, like fixing cars or performing surgery or those other dirty jobs polite society pays someone else to take care of. Imagine going to a garden party, and spending the entire time talking about the social oppression of illegal immigrant gardeners... nobody is going to want to talk to you. Except the gardeners. But as soon as they can afford to hire gardeners of their own, they'll toss you out on your ear, too.

tezz

Hi Diana, Although I cannot really comment on your double standard experiences ( I am currently living in Sydney, Australia and know no religious people at all personally), I just wanted to say I hope you come though your posting in one piece, body and mind. :wave:

PoodleLovinPessimist

Heh. I said exactly that to my grandmother under similar circumstances. I think I used the term "superstitious nonsense".

I say it all the time. When people look shocked I tell them, "If you're going to be condescending, so will I." If they don't like it, they can go f**k themselves.

Cynthia of Syracuse

Moving to Secular Lifestyle.

diana

Hi, PLP.

I waiver between the anger borne of frustration that provokes me to methodically alienate every theist I know and the desire to keep my friends, who are wonderful in every other way but somehow blind when it comes to this.

d

Cynthia of Syracuse

(After throwing Mod Hat onto lampstand)

IRL, I find that giving them the kind of look you'd give your date if he showed up to the premiere of a grand opera in cutoffs and a Hawaiian shirt eating a burrito is usually enough to get it across that they've committed a major faux pas. Doesn't translate to the 'Net very well, unfortunately.

I think part of the problem lies in the fact that things like "I'm praying for you" are often reflexive "polite" sayings without much real meaning behind them. Since so many people are at least nominal Christians (at least in the States) they are rarely required to think much about it. Most of their hearers will take it as lightly as it's spoken. It doesn't necessarily occur to them that what is courteous and perfectly acceptable in one context may not be so in another. Ask them if they would tell dirty jokes at a funeral? Wear a track suit to a traditional wedding? Offer a ham sandwich to an Orthodox Jew? If they still don't get it, it's hopeless.

They probably think they're being supportive and encouraging, but why not just say that? If they feel the need to pray for an atheist, why don't they just go into their closet in secret and do it? It'll make them feel better, and the atheist won't be offended. Why the need to tell about it?

PoodleLovinPessimist

I don't mind so much when people offer to pray for me. What irritates me, though, is when they're sorry for me for not believing. That was, I recall, the comment that provoked my response to my grandmother.

I'm getting irascible and short-tempered in my old age; I have neither the time nor the inclination to mollycoddle fools. YMMV

diana

Yes, it strikes me as a backhanded compliment, as well. It probably stems from the common idea that atheists are pawns of the devil, but that's just my guess. But again, it would be unacceptable for atheists to ever say, "You're too nice to be a Christian." Double standards.

In America, and socially, I'm inclined to agree.

I wasn't on about discrimination so much as I was about the nuances of what we might think of as "marginalizing" or "dismissing" the opinions of another and what constitutes acceptable social discourse. If a Christian were to say to me, "This is how I feel as a Christian in X situation" and I were to respond with "God is Santa for adults, and your choosing to believe in such a feel-good fantasy is your choice," I would definitely offend, and no one would argue that I wasn't out of line. I might even be forfeiting my friendship in order to say that. All I've done, though, in my hypothetical situation, is offer unsoliticed affirmation of my disbelief and implied the other person has chosen to delude himself and, while I still love him, I pity him. But when I say "This is how I feel as an atheist in Y situation," so many Christians feel it's acceptable to assert, unsolicited, that God exists and loves me and I've chosen to not believe (a statement in itself that sets me off something awful, as though you can just choose to believe something and voila! you believe it), I'm expected to either nod approval or at worst, listen politely and say nothing.

It simply isn't fair and it isn't right, and I think we do ourselves and them a disservice by not saying so. The question is, I guess, how to get them to see how rude and unwelcome their comments are.

d

Ms. Siv

Well, post September 11th, what enraged me even more was when people all over started gathering and "praying".

Religion caused the atrocity ... and what do they turn to ... religion ...