Incitatus

Thank you very much for your response. You seem to be a nice Wiccan. The Wiccans I've met in my town in New Zealand are rather grumpy. I posed similar questions to them as the ones above, and now they don't like me much at all. They all assumed I was Christian, shooting similar criticisms of Christianity back, even though I grew up in an agnostic home and know relatively little about that religion. Some of these Wiccans were students at my university, another was my friend's Landlady. I'm now forbidden from entering her house, which I think is ridiculous. Much of our conflict came from an understanding about the role of criticism, I think. I thought I could criticise and question the Wiccans I met in order to gain more information, they thought this approach was "persecuting" them.

I contacted them because I thought paganism sounded interesting, but they've really put me off Wicca. I 'll probably look into the Recon religions. I find polytheism, with its mysterious "beings" or "forces," existing inside and subject to the universe, much more believable than the monotheistic religions and their god who exists outside and rules over creation. I admire this quote from Seneca, an Ancient Roman:

I also believe that the polytheistic ability to discern "history" from "mythology" (which Christians can't), and to adapt their symbols to their culture, is laudable. I agree with Joseph Campbells view on this topic, and enjoy reading his stuff. The polytheist's attidtudes to religion and the world were much more in tune with European notions of progress and liberty, as opposed to the Middle-Eastern world-view. The coming of Christianity can be seen as a reversal of the battle at Marathon (a victory for European values - freedom, equality, the excellence of man and of nature). Our dating system should count back to that event, not the birth of Christ.

I sure hope your not Jewish or Arabic, or I'm going to look quite stupid, and possibly racist. I admire Europe and hope to travel there.

Shven

I'm sorry, what 'pre-patriarchal religions' are we talking about here?

Incitatus

The religions of the ancient Canaanites, Cretans, and the matriachal culture that existed in Greece before the Indo-Europeans arrived. Evidence left from these people shows a belief in three important dieties, two of them female. Joseph Campbell has argued that there is evidence versions of this faith may have existed throughout the entirety of Europe, before the Indo-Europeans, but it's certainly nothing conclusive.

badger3k

I'm not sure if this is directed toward me, but since I responded to you I think it is. First, I'm not a Wiccan, although I have several friends and relatives who are. My beliefs are more in line with Buddhist or Taoist (more T than B), but I perhaps carry some neo-pagan (more recon) leanings, mainly to Asatru or Hellenism. I see where you are coming from, especially on the criticism angle. I think another part of the problem is the fact that it may be criticism (such as "that is stupid!") rather than questioning (such as "why do you believe that?"). I think if we looked at different views with more respect to the individual, there would be less angry responses. I'm not saying this is always the case, but sometimes what seems innocent can often be perceived as an attack (even if it really was not meant that way).

Actually, I am a Caucasian American of Eastern/Northern descent, even though I really love Ireland and Scotland (and Wales) and would love to visit. I'd like to see Europe as well. Hope you get to go, since it doesn't seem like I'll ever have the money (without selling everything or changing my life severely).

A couple of links that you might be aware of:
Witchvox - http://www.witchvox.com/index.html
and
Beliefnet - they have links and discussions in many areas, including Pagan/Neo-Pagan/Wiccan (Earth-based): http://www.beliefnet.com/ is the main site, and http://www.beliefnet.com/index/index_10015.html is the specific one for Pagan related beliefs.

I haven't read Seneca, but am currently reading a new translation of Marcus Aurelius. I'm not sure if polytheists could distinguish history from myth completely, since they seemed to be more flexible in that regard than we are (they had different standards IMO), but I agree that many did not regard the myths as some literal inerrant truth (although probably some did, knowing people). I'd agree that some of the philosophers and writers could tell the difference (and maybe the style of writing can lead to confusion on the issue as well), but that issue could probably be another thread (if there isn't one already on it).

Shven

Nothing conclusice is right. Its based on a variety of 'goddess images' - ie carvings of naked women (of which we know nothing relating to the purpose of) and a hell of a lot of speculation, folklore and revisionist history. and arguing that there is evidence for something is not the same as showing the evidence. And not one shred of evidence has shown the existence of a matriarchal culture existing in the depths of pre-history. Much as I like the idea, it just isn't true.

Karalora

I think a lot of people confuse matriarchy with matrilocality and matrifocality. Other people tend to exaggerate a culture into a matriarchy if they discover evidence that it accorded women any more power and status than, say, medieval Europe.

Shven

So we're in a matriarchal society at the moment then?

I probably agree with you, but first you'll have to define matrilocality and matrifocality.

Incitatus

What about the "pre-Greek Greeks"? Do you have any more useful knowledge about them you could let me know about? Is there much weight behind the idea that some Greek mythology (Perseus and Medusa, for instance) is based on an earlier *relatively* female-based mythology? I've come across this in a couple of places outside Campbell. Campbell's claims that Jewish mythology was partly taken from an earlier culture (the Canaanites) seem convincing. In "The Masks of God" he shows several pre-Hebrew tablets, depicting trees with a snake, fruit and a goddess, just like in Genesis.

Please let me know if I'm being too naive or reading poor material. I'm a film major, with everything that implies, not a history major. I don't know I can quite give up Joseph Campbell, even if he isnt taken so seriously. His stuff is so fascinating.

I've become rather interested in comparative mythology lately - this is partly for my own edification, partly because some of my family has gone fundamentalist. And I live in New Zealand, where this denomination is considered some kind of American cult! It started when my cousin joined the "Amway" salesman crap, and it spread from him.

Cheers, Incitatus.

Shven

Remind me. What did Joseph campbell write? I'm familiar with the name but I cant quite place it.

and while its not my place to inform you of ancient greek mythology what with you making the odd claim at all, I will recommend 'Triumph of the Moon' by Ron hutton. Its not one I've read much of personally, but it looks into the rise of neo-pagan traditions and ideas and their historical roots (or lack thereof)

Incitatus

I've read part of Triumph of the Moon, the chapters dealing with the rise of Wicca towards the present day. I wanted to be more informed about the issues the Wiccans I knew were discussing.

Joseph Campbell's most famous work is probably The Hero With a Thousand Faces or maybe his Power of Myth interviews with Bill Moyers in the 80's. He believes a single philosophy can be deduced from various world cultures, which seems to have similarities with Jungian psychology and Hinduism. His work is extremely interesting, but I'm sure some find it far too new-agey. He also has interpreted much biblical mythology metaphorically, using psychology and comparitive mythology, which has pissed off some folks no end. He also wrote the Masks of God series of books: Primitive-, Oriental-, Occidental- and Creative Mythology. I reccomend you try him, but can't guarantee you'll like him.