Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ben C Smith · 01-14-2009, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

It seems that Tiberius, emperor at the supposed time of Jesus, used informants.

Cassius Dio Roman History 57.16.3

Quote:

The same year a certain Clemens, who had been a slave of Agrippa and resembled him to a certain extent, pretended to be Agrippa himself.

He went to Gaul and won many to his cause there and many later in Italy, and finally he marched upon Rome with the avowed intention of recovering the dominion of his grandfather.

The population of the city became excited at this, and not a few joined his cause, but Tiberius got him into his hands by a ruse with the aid of some persons who pretended to sympathize with this upstart. He thereupon tortured him, in order to learn about his fellow co-conspirators...

This is a very good contribution. Thank you, aa5874.

Ben.

bacht · 01-14-2009, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Jesus appeared to over 500 Christians at once.

Let me see. The Romans crucify a Messianic candidate, presumably believing a Jewish Messiah was somebody supposed to instigate a violent revolt.

Presuambly any Roman governor worth his salt would have had somebody infiltrate such a movement, or 'persuade' one of them to become an informer, or find some way of keeping tracks on them.

And then over 500 of these followers of a crucified rebel meet at one place and time.

Surely a mass gathering of over 500 followers of a recently crucified Messianic candidate would have been attacked by the Roman soldiers in Palestine.

What else were these soldiers there for except to put down mass gatherings of followers of rebels?

This story just can't be historical.

Robert Price suggests that this story was a later interpolation into the Corinthians passage, which originally was about the credentials of the apostles. The later author ignored the main point and wanted to use this chapter to reinforce the idea of resurrection.

["The Pre-Nicene New Testament"]

Ben C Smith · 01-14-2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Robert Price suggests that this story was a later interpolation into the Corinthians passage, which originally was about the credentials of the apostles. The later author ignored the main point and wanted to use this chapter to reinforce the idea of resurrection.

Article available online.

Ben.

show_no_mercy · 01-14-2009, 01:16 PM

Does the text say anywhere that "over 500" were all in the same place at the same time? Can we reasonably infer that at the same time means also at the same place? Maybe Paul is using "over 500" as an exaggeration for "a shit-ton" when in reality it might have been just a "large group of people" maybe around 40 or 50 people.

A lot of Paul's rantings about resurrections are really ambiguous.

Toto · 01-14-2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Does the text say anywhere that "over 500" were all in the same place at the same time? ...

Not precisely, but it is a reasonable inference, if you read this literally.

then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time,

nickpecoraro · 01-14-2009, 02:37 PM

If Jesus had appeared to 500 brothers at one time he would have had to appear during the 40 days after his resurrection because then he went up into heaven.
But after Jesus went to heaven, his followers were all together in the upper room when they received the Holy Spirit.
At that point Jesus only had 120 followers in the upper room.
{Read Acts Chapters 1 and 2}

As you can see the numbers don't compute.
Paul says in 1Corinthians that Jesus appeared to 500 followers.
But Acts says that Jesus only had 120 followers during the same time period.

nick pecoraro

Steven Carr · 01-14-2009, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Steven, what in the story gives you the impression that the Romans would have been particularly worried about a resurrection spoiling their execution?

As for the 500, the story says that the crowd turned against him. Hell even his bestest buddy Peter denied he knew him.

(and of course, the informer offed himself, shortly thereafter)

So, based on the story, I can't see any reason for the Romans not to have thought the issue closed.

So 500 plus followers of a recently crucified Messianic candidate could have met in perfect safety, because somebody denied that he knew Jesus (and the Romans knew it had been his bestest buddy who had denied any connection with Jesus)

And why did 500 plus meet? Did Jesus send out invitations? I will be appearing on Mount Olive on May 8 3 AD. 7.30 for 8?

What sort of mega-church could have held 500 plus Christians at one time?

mountainman · 01-14-2009, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

And why did 500 plus meet?

Dear Steven,

Were'nt they there to cast lots to determine who was who, and responsible for the conversion of the various nations, towards world dominion?

Quote:

Did Jesus send out invitations? I will be appearing on Mount Olive on May 8 3 AD. 7.30 for 8?

Eusebius does not mention this specific correspondence Steven so, no, Jesus only wrote one letter --- to the King Agbar. The couriers name strangely enough was Ananias.

Quote:

What sort of mega-church could have held 500 plus Christians at one time?

Perhaps like the "Tardis", christian churches had a lot more dimensional room inside than you'd expect when looking at one from the outside?

Best wishes,

Pete

Toto · 01-14-2009, 10:58 PM

Wasn't 500 about the size of a cohort in a Roman Legion?

dog-on · 01-15-2009, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Steven, what in the story gives you the impression that the Romans would have been particularly worried about a resurrection spoiling their execution?

As for the 500, the story says that the crowd turned against him. Hell even his bestest buddy Peter denied he knew him.

(and of course, the informer offed himself, shortly thereafter)

So, based on the story, I can't see any reason for the Romans not to have thought the issue closed.

So 500 plus followers of a recently crucified Messianic candidate could have met in perfect safety, because somebody denied that he knew Jesus (and the Romans knew it had been his bestest buddy who had denied any connection with Jesus)

If this "500" you are referring to is Paul's "500" from Corinthians, why do you believe that Paul believed that any of these "500" actually knew or had even heard of Mark's "human" Jesus?

Quote:

And why did 500 plus meet? Did Jesus send out invitations? I will be appearing on Mount Olive on May 8 3 AD. 7.30 for 8?

:lol:

Quote:

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

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01-14-2009, 01:16 PM	#24
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	Does the text say anywhere that "over 500" were all in the same place at the same time? Can we reasonably infer that at the same time means also at the same place? Maybe Paul is using "over 500" as an exaggeration for "a shit-ton" when in reality it might have been just a "large group of people" maybe around 40 or 50 people. A lot of Paul's rantings about resurrections are really ambiguous.

01-14-2009, 02:37 PM	#26
nickpecoraro Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Fort Pierce FL Posts: 46	If Jesus had appeared to 500 brothers at one time he would have had to appear during the 40 days after his resurrection because then he went up into heaven. But after Jesus went to heaven, his followers were all together in the upper room when they received the Holy Spirit. At that point Jesus only had 120 followers in the upper room. {Read Acts Chapters 1 and 2} As you can see the numbers don't compute. Paul says in 1Corinthians that Jesus appeared to 500 followers. But Acts says that Jesus only had 120 followers during the same time period. nick pecoraro

01-14-2009, 10:58 PM	#29
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Wasn't 500 about the size of a cohort in a Roman Legion?

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